I didn’t get a chance to go to MSA EZ ‘07 in Orlando, Florida, but my friend Sidi Omar H. was there. He wrote a facebook note here about a special gathering of dhikr with Imam Zaid Shakir late at night after the MSA EZ conference:
Bismillah.
One of the greatest times I had at MSA East Zone was the private mawlid we did with Imam Zaid Shakir. Brother Ibraheem Shakfeh, Khaled Shakfeh, and Sister Danya Shakfeh (ok, lets just say the whole Shakfeh family) knows what I am talking about! Ever since a few months before the East Zone conference I had been contacting brothers and sisters to try to get us to insha’Allah have a mawlid. I brought my duff (Amazon.com duffs are the best!), the encyclopedia of nasheed (yes, I beat all of you guys in nasheed maan!), and we started organizing.
al-Hamdulilah, I made du’a to Allah for the mawlid to happen. Allah (SWT) gave us tawfiq and after a lot of trials (including not having access to my duff and Sidi Ibraheem driving me to Universal Studios… lol don’t ask) the mawlid happened and we were blessed by the presence of none other than Imam Zaid Shakir himself leading the mawlid. The sisters were in the back and Imam Zaid’s wife came to the mawlid as well. Sidi Abur Rahman Squires of Mereislam.info also came. It was such a blessing and you could feel the nur.
Now I bet many of you are asking right now, “what do you mean by mawlid?” Ok, we need to seriously clarify our terms. Enough jokes about “bid’ah fest” and attacking love of the Prophet (may Allah bless him and give him peace). The word “mawlid” in common Syrian usage means:
A gathering of Muslims in which group dhikr is done, the Qur’an is read, qasaid (spiritual poems) are sung with a duff, and a dars or lesson is given by a Shaykh. This is what we mean by a “mawlid.” The word mawlid also means to celebrate the Prophet (SAWS)’s life and teachings, this is true, but these gatherings occur in Syria all over different points at the year.
We do not have musical instruments, nor is there any dancing, nor spinning in circles, nor do we do shirk and pray to the Prophet (may Allah bless him and give him peace). No, we are not dividing the ummah because whoever wants to come can come, marhaban! These gatherings have traditionally occurred for over a thousand years and are a crucial part of our tradition — even as back to the time of the tab’ieen and salaf. They might not have been called “mawlid” but it is well narrated that the salaf met and sang nasheeds together, that they did group dhikr together, that they read Qur’an together, and that they had lessons and talks. If you do not want to attend, please do not attend, but to call it a “bid’ah fest” and to start fitna and division only hurts our already hurt ummah and is straight out lies and slander. If you condemn these gatherings of singing nasheeds as being haram, then remember that there is much less disagreement over singing nasheeds than “The Sound of Reason” (may Allah preserve and reward them), or Sami Yusuf (may Allah preserve and reward them) and other Islamic entertainment. So please keep an open mind and be tolerant!
The mawlid began with the brothers going outside by the pool at about midnight at the hotel. Fumbling a little bit and messing up on some songs eventually Sidi Tareq Messidi convinced us to sing Nahran wa Laban a song about the Prophet (may Allah bless him and give him peace)’s family:
Inna fil Jannati nahran min laban
li Aliyyin wal Husaynan wa hasanIndeed in jannah there are rivers from milk
For Ali and Husayn and Hasan.After finishing this song we all began to sing one of the earliest Islamic nasheeds ever written, Talal Badru `Alayna. When nearing the end of the song, Imam Zaid Shakir entered and we were all awed by his presence. He sat down and smiled. The sisters entered in to the back of the pool and we had about 25-30 people attend this mawlid.
Imam Zaid asked us what songs we had already sang. He was exhausted, you could see it in his whole body, but you could also see his dedication for working hard in spreading this din and he didn’t budge. He kept going and he started to sing a qasida with us on the benefits of “la illaha il Allah.”
Together in unison we all began to sing about la illaha il Allah. When the qasida finished Imam Zaid gave an extremely spiritual and deep lesson. He first noted that if it wasn’t for la illaha il Allah we would not be gathered here today. He stated that we would be who knows where. La illaha il Allah is what gathered us and united us. It is this word which is so important to every one of our lives. He began to explain that it is the key to jannah, that whoever dies believing in it is assured jannah, that it is what each Prophet came with, and that it should be repeated much.
He then spoke about the words of the great master of Islamic spiritual sciences Ibn `Alawi and what he stated in his qasida:
`Alayka ya murid
Bi Khamyr at-TawhidUpon you O willing one,
By the wine of tawhidHe stated that whenever the Sufis or other writers of Islamic spirituality speak of “wine” they are not speaking in literal terms of the wine of the dunya. He said this wine is haram, astaghfirallah. He said that the Sufis are using a metaphor when they speak of wine, they are speaking of a spiritual state in which nothing registers — because one who is drunk in the dunya nothing registers with him.
Imam Zaid said ever since 9/11 he has never seen one bad look at him or one bad face attacking Muslimeen. He said that these negative vibes just do not register in his heart, and he swore to Allah to this. He said that one time one guy called him an “F—ing terrorist” but that he never saw his face and it just didn’t register. He said this is what it means to be “drunk” on la illaha il allah. He said that we must keep saying la illaha il Allah until we begin to feel and practice and know it and that we get to a state where nothing of this dunya registers in our minds except our love for Allah and his Prophet (SAWS) and this deen.
Imam Zaid said this is the state that is referred to in the Qur’an in the ayat, “The awliya’ of Allah there is no fear upon them nor will they grieve.” Imam Zaid said those with nearness to Allah are always in remembrance of him, in their hearts, minds, and tongues, and so those things in life which create fear or sadness do not register in their minds. It is as if they are not there. They realize that everything is from Allah and that everything which occurs are just causes and effects which Allah creates. They see Allah’s power, his majesty, his beauty, his attributes in total whenever they look at the creation.
Imam Zaid then continued to explain more spiritual qasa’id or poems stating that in Islam the definition of faqr and ghina are different than in the West. Faqr or “poverty” means that which is in need of something, and ghina or wealth means that which has no need. He said Allah is the Wealthy the Ghani and we are the poor the fuqara’ because we are in need of Allah in every state in our lives. We need Allah to keep us in existence, we need Allah to guide us to him, we need Allah to forgive our sins, we need Allah to grant us happiness and what we want in life, we are in dire need of Allah. We need to realize this dire need.
Imam Zaid said that the reason the scholars of spirituality wrote these poems are twofold, (1) they condensed very long spiritual meanings from the Qur’an and Sunnah into easy to memorize form, (2) that they “stick in your head” and you find yourself singing these songs when you are walking down the street and so it brings you back to remembering Allah. Imam Zaid said that if these gatherings cause us to reflect on such meanings and to go out and do action then they are beneficial, but if they don’t then they are just a waste of time and we are better off reading Qur’an. This is the importance of such mawlid gatherings, it is not just a joke, it is a means to reflect on the lessons of the deen and to go out and do good. Imam Zaid lamented that it is very sad that our scholars worked so hard to create these qasa’id and now this whole tradition has been left and rejected, but insha’Allah one day the tradition will come back.
How many a time do we gather listening to certain bad types of music and it gets into our heads? This is the exact opposite of what mawlid is trying to do, mawlid is trying to get the good spiritual songs in your head so that you can reflect on them. How many ahadith does the Prophet (may Allah bless him and give him peace) praise the beauty of good voices, and the Qur’an itself says the worst sound is the sound of a donkey. How many ahadith does the Prophet (may Allah bless him and give him peace) sing with his companions anasheed, such as when digging the trench before the battle of Khandaq? This is just that same tradition which we are carrying on. The mawlid gatherings let us witness the beauty and richness of such beautiful poems and voices and allow us to reflect upon what we are supposed to be doing in our lives.
Imam Zaid continued to speak on realizing our need for Allah (SWT) and told us that he who increases in asking Allah for forgiveness will find his sins right before his eyes and will be saved from much punishment because he will make tawba before his death. He stated that if you send much salat wa salam on the Prophet (may Allah bless him and give him peace) you will increase in love for the Prophet (may Allah bless him and give him peace).
Imam Zaid led us in the end with group dhikr of la illaha il Allah. The Prophet (may Allah bless him and give him peace) in many ahadith praised group dhikr and told us that the angels would come down to such gatherings and sakinah or “calmness” would enter into the people’s hearts. Masha’Allah. After the mawlid I felt such a happiness enter my heart, like the one after you have prayed 2 rak’at in the rawdah of the Prophet (may Allah bless him and give him peace) or the feeling of looking at the Ka’bah.
In the end I was so glad that the mawlid happened. I was working hard on it, just ask the Shakfeh family
, but in the end it happened. Insha’Allah one of these days people will learn to be respectful of the tradition of the Muslim ummah which has had these gatherings since the time of the salaf, and we can have these gatherings in more open and less private settings. Anyone who was there knew what we did and we are not hiding anything. Maybe the big deal is that we call it “mawlid” and just assume people know what we’re talking about — next time I say that we just call it “a gathering of nasheed, dhikr, Qur’an, and a lesson” — for as Imam al-Ghazali said, “When meanings are set there is no use quibbling over names.”
wa `alaykum as salam wa rahmatallah.
Omar Hossino (may Allah forgive me!) PLEASE MAKE DU’A FOR ME.
Source: Omar’s Facebook Note
Related posts:
- Mawlid at Zaytuna with Shaykh Hamza and Imam Zaid – Audio Only
- Mawlid Conference – Sh. Hamza Yusuf and Imam Tahir Anwar – March 8, 2009
- State of the Union: The Muslim Experience with Sh. Hamza Yusuf, Imam Zaid Shakir, Imam Mohammed Magid and Hadia Mubarak
- Ramadan Greetings from Imam Zaid Shakir
- Help Imam Siraj Online Fundraiser with Imam Zaid Shakir, Imam Suhaib Webb and Shaykh Faraz Rabbani
35 Responses for "Mawlid with Imam Zaid during MSA EZ 07′"
Mashallah! A great gathering to celebrate the birthday of our prophet (pbuh). Indeed, those who attended this special event are blessed. May Allah shower our prophet (pbuh) with peace and blessings. Ameen!!!
There’ll be another mawlid celebration on the 18th of this month at Columbia University I think. Come through insha Allah.
Assalamaualaykum. Yes, at Columbia University, there will be a Mawlid.
Wednesday, April 18th, 7:00 PM
Earl Hall Auditorium, 117th and Broadway.
Please see our website http://www.columbia.edu/cu/msa/announcements.shtml
As-salaamu ‘alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatu,
I just have one question… the brother says that even the taabi’een and salaf took part in such mawlids, but may I ask for one example, please? ‘Cuz I honestly haven’t heard of this before…
Yes, the sahaba and tab’ieen and salaf took part in gatherings of nasheed. They also had gatherings of group dhikr, and Qur’an recitation, and learning. These four elements together comprise what happens in the modern mawlid.
Proof that poetry, singing, and the duff are halal (unlike other musical instruments which are haram):
http://bewley.virtualave.net/adab5.html#poetry
Proof that the salaf gathered to sing nasheeds as long as they were absent of haram musical instruments:
What has also been narrated from `Abdullah ibn Zubayr (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated from Abu Talib al-Makki that he used to listen to singing. And it was narrated that Shaykh Taqi al-Din ibn Daqeeq al-`Iyyad in his book “Iqtanas al-Sowanah) in his chain upon Wahab ibn Keesan that he said “I heard `Abdullah ibn Zubayr listen to singing.”
[It has been narrated that] a scholar in the presence of Caliph Harun Rashid said, ‘I
attended a wedding feast in Madinah in which the scholars attended.
[There were so many singers at this wedding] that if the house were
to collapse, no singer would remain in Madinah. And the smallest
of the [condoning] scholars present was Imam Malik ibn Anas. So,
they sang [and a man] had a mizhar (i.e. a duff) so, they sang [with it] and uttered nasheeds.” (Futuhat al-Ilahiyah bi Sharh al-Mabahith)
And `Abdullah ibn Muhammad ibn `Abd al-Rahman ibn Abi Bakr al-Siddiq (may Allah be pleased with him) as narrated by Qadi Abu Mansur: Ibn Abi `Ateeq was a Faqih and would know of songs and he used to listen to very much and this is well known and the people of narrations do not differ upon this with a good chain. And he used to be very happy. He would engage in fiqh and zuhd and worship. And the two Shaykhs narrated from him in their two Sahihs.
Ibn Qutayba said: it was said of Ibn Jareej that he used to go to the jami`at, and he came upon a singer so he knocked on his door, and so he sat with him upon the road and said “I was here and I heard sounds singing, and so my tears came down until they reached my beard†and then he said “Indeed from songs for whoever remembers Paradise.â€
And Sahib al-Tazkarat al-Hamduni said that Dawud al-Makki said: I was in the study circle of Ibn Jareej and he had a group with him including `Abdullah ibn Mubarak and a group of Iraqis and when a singer came by them they would say to him: “I love that you would sing†so they would say “I am in a hurry!†So they sung upon them and so they said to him “It is better three times.†And they said “do you find these immoral?†And they replied “Indeed we find them immoral in Iraq†And they said to him “What do you say of Rajz†And they said “there is no harm of it with us†And he said “and what is the difference between it and singing?â€
Proof that the salaf engaged in group dhikr:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/ABewley/group.html
http://lamppostproductions.org/Dhikr.pdf
http://www.sunnipath.com/Resources/Questions/QA00004294.aspx
Proof that the salaf gathered to recite Qur’an:
Do you really need prof?
Proof that the salaf gathered for sessions of learning:
Do you really need proof?
Now a “mawlid” is really just a gathering of singing nasheeds, yet at the same time many “mawlids” have lessons, or Qur’an readings, or group dhikr.
There are more proofs of the salaf gathering for nasheed especially during the time of the Prophet (SAWS) such at the time of the Battle of the Trench when the sahaba and the Prophet (SAWS) sang nasheeds, and during the times of the early Muslims when this happened.
The Muslims have been writing nasheeds since the time of the Prophet (SAWS), they have been singing these nasheeds since the time of the Prophet (SAWS) and they have been doing this in groups since the time of the salaf. If you don’t like the term mawlid then just call it a “gathering in which nasheed is sung.” That is all it is.
was Salam.
http://www.sunnah.org/publication/mawlid.htm
Read statements made by Ibn Taymiyyah, Ibn Qayyim al Jawziyyah and Ibn Kathir on the mawlid.
Omar has got this Mawlid stuff down!
Assalaam-u-Alaikum Wa-Rahmatullahi Wa-Rabakatuhu
i have a question is it ok that if you were reading the Qur’an and you didn’t know does that count as you’re doing a dhikr ?
Reading the Qur’an is dhikr regardless of if you did know or didn’t know.
“that if these gatherings cause us to reflect on such meanings and to go out and do action then they are beneficial, but if they don’t then they are just a waste of time and we are better off reading Qur’an.”
Well said. thats the crux of the entire conflict-isnt it
Salaf doing group dhikr??
I have never been to a Mawlid that was like that, Alhamdulillah!
Keep away from the wacko mawlids. Stick to the mawlids of the ‘ulema.
i meant that will it count as if you’re doing a dhikr like you do mawlid for prohpet muhammad (saw)!
As-salaamu ‘alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatu,
JazakAllahu khair for the info, brother Omar!
Lucky ducks.
[...] 18th, 2007 · No Comments I went to East Zone thinking Imam Zaid Shakir was going to be the show and that would be it. Iwas dead wrong. Sheikh Mokhtar Mabraoui was AMAZING (I realized this even before he first quoted Imam ibn ‘Atai’lah). So was Sheikh Magid Ali (Who was so cool when he pushed the guy giving his intro out of the way). I think the message came across very strong as well: seek Allah by serving your community and be the mercy to mankind that our beloved Prophet was. I think many people were looking forward to this reflection but anything I say about it will only diminish it. Read other reflections. Better yet, come next year to EZ. One of the things that stood out for me was the secret Mawlid with Imam Zaid Shakir. And for you mawlid hater: what a waste of emotions. Agree to disagree and focus your emotions and energies somewhere else. We planned it out for 12 and all the stuff (except for Omar’s duff) with in my hotel room and I had fallen asleep around 11:30 and by some miracle, woke up at like 11:58. I ran down with all the poems and started running around like a chicken with its head cut off reminding people and getting everything in position (hence why I messed up on the salawat and he chorus of Tarek’s nasheed). But we continued with poetry and thikr until Imam Zaid took over and did some beautiful poetry and lessons. Someone else wrote a great reflection on it here. [...]
Asalamu alaykum,
I think Br. Omar needs to slow down. His contention and post represent only the minority understanding on this very controversial issue:
al-’Izz Ibn Abdul Salam (the sultan of the scholars and a mujtahid) said:
“Concerning dancing and clapping, they are considered acts of Khiffah immaturity and foolishness similar to the foolishness of silly girls which is only done by a foolish or a phony person…the prophet SAAWS has said: ‘the best of generations is my generation, then the one that comes after them, and then the one that comes after them’ and none of those –whom people take as role models- used to do any of this (clapping and dancing). In fact, Satan has taken over people who think that the excitement they experience when listening to singing is concerning Allah ‘Azz wa jalla but verily they lied about this.”
Izz continues:
“It is not becoming from one -who fears Allah and has some respect to Him- to clap or dance. These two (clapping and dancing) originate only from a foolish ignorant. They do not originate from sane and pious. As an evidence of the ignorance of whoever does them is that the Shari’ah (Sacred Law) did not legislate them neither in the Quran nor in the Sunnah, and none of the prophets had done them, nor any of their real followers. They are only performed by the ignorant immature people who confuse truth with desires. Allah SWT said: ‘We have We have not neglected anything in the Book, then to their Lord shall they be gathered’ (Surah 6, verse 38). The early Muslim generations and the pious among the late generations had proceeded without embracing any of that (clapping and dancing)â€
Al-Shatibi al-Maliki said: ‘I wish they stopped at this –which in itself is blameworthy- but on top of that they have progressed into dancing, using wind instruments, whirling, and beating their chests; some bang their heads. How similar this is to the laughable acts of the foolish ones! This is so because these actions of theirs belong to kids and insane, it causes sane people to cry in sympathy for them since this can’t be taken as a path to Allah, and a way to resemble the pious ones.’ See al-’Itisam
Al-Ajiry (d 360 H) said: ‘it has to be said to whoever did this (dancing, whirling, etc): know that the most truthful when admonishing, the most sincere to his Ummah, and the one with the softest heart and the best among the people who came after him -with no doubt- never screamed when they were admonished, nor cried out loudly or danced. If these acts were acceptable then they (the companions) are the most entitled to do them in front of the Prophet SAAWS, however (they did not) because it is Bid’ah, falsehood, and evil.’ â€
al-Fatawa al-Hindiyyah is a collection of Islamic rulings issued and compiled by a group of Hanafi scholars from India. This scholarly work was in response to a request by the Muslim king of India and a Islamic scholar in his own standing, Muhammad Aurangzeb. In this collection of Fatawa (Islamic rulings) one finds the following:
“The Sama’ (listening to singing), singing poetry, and dancing that Sufis do these days are impermissible; both going to it and attending it are not permissible. These actions are similar to singing and music”
Therefore, one has to wonder why such things are being promoted? Let us move from the issues of contention and work on what we can agree.
Sahnun
the Maliki School, then it is well known that the Mashur opinion is that such acts are disliked innovations. This was articulated by Sh. Bin Bayyah a few years ago in London at the lecture on Rabaniya and Politics. In addition, Sidi Dirdi talks about it in his Al-Sharh al-Saghir.
I never said anything about dancing, whirling, beating oneself, or using musical instruments. I also disagree with your definition of “Sama’” as listening to poetry because those scholars who wrote of “Sama’” defined it as more than that — see Imam al-Ghazali’s Ihya’, Sh. Abdal Ghani al-Nabulsi’s Ibah al-Dalalat, and Ibn al-Banna’s Mahabith al-Asliyah (Section on Sama’) for more details on what ‘ullema meant by Sama’.
As for saying that singing poetry with the duff is haram, then yes many scholars did say that the duff was a haram musical instrument only to be used at weddings. This is a valid opinion.
However we are speaking of singing nasheeds seperate of the whole duff issue. It is established by clear nass that poetry was sung even at the time of the Prophet (SAWS) including the song “Tala’l Badru ‘Alayna” sung to him when he entered Madinah, and the singing of nasheed which the sahaba did when building the Trench before the battle of Khandaq. It is also established that the salaf had gatherings of nasheed if they were free of impermissible matters as I have mentioned above.
I am aware of some Maliki scholars which did in fact ban all singing — including singing the adhaan which they found as makruh, as well as reading the Qur’an in a beautiful voice (such as what they do in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, and pretty much the Muslim world) however this opinion – that nasheed is haram, has not been taught to me as one which stands nowadays by any of the many Maliki ‘ullema I know — however I will ask them.
Let us also remember that in the Maliki school the “mashhur” opinion is not always followed and it is not always the strongest opinion. Please see Sh. Ali al-Iraqi al-Husayni’s work “al-Fatwa al-Qada fil Madhhab al-Maliki” which has been translated into English now and is availible online. The “mashhur” as I have been taught by Maliki scholars is “ma katharat qawlahu” or that which has been said much; however the “raajih” is “that which is supported by the strongest evidence.” The vocabulary of the Maliki school in fiqh terminology is different than other schools, and “mashhur” in the Maliki school definetly is not always the strongest and in many cases one could even be sinful for taking the “mashhur” opinion which in many cases is easier than the “raajih.” So, Sh. ‘Abdullah ibn Bayyah apparently stating in fatwa that singing nasheed is haram in the mashhur of the Maliki madhhab does not make this the raajih.
Lastly, Muslims have been singing nasheed for centuries. If you personally follow the very very very rare opinion the nasheed is haram even without the duff then go ahead and be my guest. But as the fuqaha’ have said there is no prohibition of the evil on issues of ikhtilaf.
wa `alaykum as salam wa rahmatallahi wa barakatahu dear Brother.
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh,
Sometimes the whole is more than simply a sum of it’s parts. Br. Omar, you mentioned that a mawlid is simply a gathering in which there is nasheed, dhikr, Qur’an recitation, and learning. Each one of these things in and of themselves may not be problematic, but the contentious issue is in making a special type of gathering in which these things are included, specifying it’s manner and it’s time (for example in Rabi’a al-Awwal) as a practice that will bring a person closer to Allah, and there is no precedence for this exact construction from the Prophet (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) or the salaf. There are scholars of our tradition who would and did have a real problem with that (and not just ‘Wahhabis’ of the modern day). An example I can give you is Imam Shatibi in whose definition of reprehensible bid’ah this practice would fit. [his def.: something in the deen, that is new with no precedence, that is in competition with the way established by the Shari'ah [and what the Prophet (saw) did and also what he did *not* do both comprise how we understand the Shari'ah in this def.], and that is done with the intent of getting closer to Allah).
I’ll give you another example: choosing to take every Wednesday, without fail, as a day on which to fast. Why not? Fasting is good, isn’t it, and it’s been recommended in so many ahadeeth? True, but scholars like Imam Shatibi would have a problem with this, because you are specifying something that the Shari’ah did not specify (fasting on *Wednesday*), and you are attaching reward to performing that practice in that specific way, and there is no precedence for it. It is as if you are saying, there *is* special reward for fasting on Wednesdays, but the Prophet (salAllahu alayhi wa salam) didn’t teach us that (which is a big thing to say.) So it would be the same for this type of practice, it’s elements are good, but it is in a construction that has no precedence. And when it comes to matters of trying to draw close to Allah (‘ibadah) some of the ulema like Imam Shatibi have been very strict about what they allowed and what they did not permit.
My point: You may find people who have a problem with mawlids, NOT because they don’t like nasheeds, or dhikr, or learning, or reading Quran; and NOT because they don’t have love for the Prophet (salAllahu alayhi wasalam); and NOT because they are crazy wahhabis, but simply because, from their reading of the works of our traditional ulema, they find that this is something that should not be done, and they want to be true to that.
I’m still a student and struggling with a lot of these issues myself… but we really, really, REALLY do have a history of scholarly contention on these issues, and we really make it too simplistic when we just take one side’s opinion and put it in the trash. Also, (and I’m really sorry if I’m coming across as bickering) but the fact that the vast majority of Muslims have done something for generations is not a proof, if you study Usul al-Fiqh, and there’s no scholar who would call that ‘ijmaa, so technically that argument does not really have a lot of weight (though I do understand your point about taking shaadh opinions, though I would not consider that applicable in this issue.)
I ask that Allah (swt) grants us clarity and helps us overcome our differences because we really have a lot of work we need to be doing out there and not worrying about these things. I just felt the need to write a response to this post because I feel, like I said, that sometimes we tend to judge quickly or we think an issue is a lot simpler than it really is.
btw I studied Imam Shatibi’s book al I’tisaam with Sh. Mokhtar Maghraoui, so that goes to show you that there are shuyukh out there who are spiritually inclined and who may follow the stricter opinion on these matters.
w’Allahu a’lam
wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah
Good points brother. Every scholar of ahl al sunnah who permitted a mawlid gathering said it was reprehensible bid’ah if these gatherings were (a) confined only to one specific date, (b) believed to be an obligatory part of the religion i.e. to hold such a gathering at a certain time, (c) mixed with forbidden things, and (d) made into a new ‘eid.
As for those who would not like to partake in the celebrations and who follow different opinions — as I said be my guest. We should insha’Allah just name them “gatherings of nasheed” next time. As for Shaykh Mokhtar Maghraoui’s (may Allah preserve him)’s understanding of Imam Shatibi’s book – then may Allah increase us all in knowledge and give us all benefit. However, as Imam Zaid, Shaykh Hamza, and scholars all over America have shown these gatherings will continue in the United States and for those who believe in their value and religious and worldly benefit. It is a common principle that it is forbidden to condemn people on issues in which there is valid difference of opinion – this being one of them.
It is also disliked for scholars to argue about religious issues, and forbidden for common issues. Suffice it to say that even the interpretation of Imam al-Shatibi amongst Malikis is a very complex affair indeed. May Allah make us of those who do the good and follow the best.
was Salam.
Salams,
I would have to disagree with your contention br. Omar. If we follow your line then this is an issue that falls under the mushtabihat. According to Ibn Rajab (ra) there are five meanings of such a matter, the conclusion being that it is better to leave it and definitely that it should not be brought to the ‘Awam. As for the Mashur in the Maliki school, I thank it safe to say that your contention, or the one you’ve learned, is one of three possible ones. However, the most common is what is found in the Mudawanah, secondly, if the dalil is weak, then the stronger dalil and then your contention. Thus, we are introducing and defending a position that is weak and questionable according to some of the greatest fuqha! Why? Why start this in the USA? Why not focus on feeding the poor, starting a reading clinic or something that we can all agree on? Why start with such issues? Where is the wisdom in this? And how does this agree with khuruj min al-Khilaf is mustahab ya sidi? This stuff is only creating further division and waste of time as can be seen by the large amount of research you done on the issue. Also. Nabahani (may Allah have mercy on him) is seen as very controversial amongst the scholars. As for me, Sh. Bin Bayyah is enough. Stick with the mashur and you’ll be fine.
Sahnoon
Oh and Sh. Bin Bayyah said is was Bida not haram.
When you say Why start this in the USA? Why not focus on feeding the poor, starting a reading clinic or something that we can all agree on? Why start with such issues?, how do you that Sidi Omar and all the Mawlid-goers aren’t already doing that? I feed the poor and do community service and also attend Mawlids. That’s a pretty wack statement to make (sorry).
And you are right, we are in the USA. That’s why we should be doing Mawlids, instead of watching TV or going to the movies/mall, etc.
Asalamu alaykum,
Omar who are you teachers?
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah,
In retrospect, I think that it wasn’t proper for me to mention Sh. Mokhtar’s name in this discussion, because he is very wary about getting involved in these sorts of debates and tries to focus on more basic principles (the importance of tazkiya, etc)…
I also have heard him say that there are some classical ulema that have held to this definition of bid’ah but have allowed a type of gathering on the birthday of the Prophet (salAllahu alayhi wa salam) with a number of conditions…. so I can’t say what his response would be if someone asked him directly about the permissibility of it or not, and if you want to know his opinion it’s best to ask him directly.
I stand by what I originally said and my point remains the same — simply that there’s more complexity to this issue than we may think, and that perhaps our time would be better used in other areas instead of trying to promote things which divide us as a community and which have been sources of contention for centuries… but I don’t think I should have mentioned any names…
Allahu a’lam, and may Allah forgive us for our missteps and mistakes.
wasalaamu alaykum,
damascus dreams
(btw I’m a sister)
Asalamu alaykum,
“That’s a pretty wack statement to make (sorry).”
Really, well I’ve been involved in the dawa for more than 30 years. I have a number of ‘Ijazat in the six books of hadith and have the Qur’an memorized by heart (all by the grace of Allah) and studied sacred knowledge for more than 40 years. But, I guess that doesn’t matter and my experience means nothing? You young kids need a good stick to teach you some adab.
Fulan bin Fulan
I was talking to the person ‘fahnun’ not you. unless u were taught for over 30 years to use fake names.
Asalamu alaykum,
In times of fitna and hardship there is nothing wrong with using a different name. I’m the same person and I appreciate your true lack of adab and respect given to your fellow brother. Obviously you haven’t benefited much from the mawlids that you’ve attended. I love you and hope that you will relax, calm down and learn to control your anger. It is not befitting of a person of your stature to act in such a manner.
Fulan bin Fulan aka Sahnoon
Also,
My ryder since you want to engage. Could you please explain the axium used above
الخروج من الخلا٠مستØاب
I would be interested in your understanding of the above as well as br. Omar’s. If you don’t have the tools to engage in such discourse then why have you? As it is forbidden for a ignorant person to engae the law if he doesn’t know. I would be interested in hearing Imam al-maziri’s opinion on this and that of Sh. Khird Hussien’s. If you say that you can’t understand the above then know that you should humble yourself and not get into issues realted to law. By the way, where did omar run to?
“I never said anything about dancing, whirling, beating oneself, or using musical instruments. I also disagree with your definition of “Sama’†as listening to poetry because those scholars who wrote of “Sama’†defined it as more than that — see Imam al-Ghazali’s Ihya’, Sh. Abdal Ghani al-Nabulsi’s Ibah al-Dalalat, and Ibn al-Banna’s Mahabith al-Asliyah (Section on Sama’) for more details on what ‘ullema meant by Sama”
Omar! Then what is your position on the Hadara? Also, let us trace the origin of the Mawlid. I would advice you all to read al-bidayah wa nihayh of Ibn Kathir for an interesting overview of its history.
Salamz
“Yes, the sahaba and tab’ieen and salaf took part in gatherings of nasheed. They also had gatherings of group dhikr, and Qur’an recitation, and learning. These four elements together comprise what happens in the modern mawlid.
Proof that poetry, singing, and the duff are halal (unlike other musical instruments which are haram):”
Did brother Omar just make Qiyas? How gave you the ‘Ijaza to make fatwa ya sheikh. Sorry to say this, but this is Qiyas ma’ al-Fariq. The ‘ila here is very different since the mawlid would be considered a ritual of worship and the practice of the companions was something related to their normal lives. However, please give an example of the Companions or the salaf using the word Wine or gather for a Mawlid. We can agree on the Majazi use of the word wine. But, is something that Allah prohibited acceptable when it is related to worship. Why not just use the words of the beloved of Allah, “al-Ihsan.” Or, is the word wine better?
Waiting and have more for you
” was talking to the person ‘fahnun’ not you. unless u were taught for over 30 years to use fake names.”
From that above statement you think M.R. is full of anger, is not calm, unrelaxed, and needs to control his anger ?!?! You seriously have issues if that’s the case. You’re coming off as a really condescending schmuck. Get off your high horse and learn some adab yourself. Geez
Thank you for your advice ya Fulan. I was giving the proofs which the ‘ullema give for the allowance of nasheed gatherings. As Imam al-Ghazali said, when meanings are set there is no use quibbling over names. I am not a Shaykh, nor do I have ijazah, nor do I claim to be a talib al-’ilm.
As for my position on hadhra, I am not a faqih, go ask one. I have never attended a hadhra, or whirling ceremony in my entire life.
“Mawlid” in this post means a nasheed gathering, nothing more nothing less. There is no qiyas that I am making because there is no qiyas on two things which are exactly the same thing (nasheed gatherings done by sahaba and tab’ieen are the same thing as ones done today right?) If you are talking about celebrating the Prophet (SAWS)’s birthday then Bin Bayyah has a fatwa on it which is availible at the translator’s website.
Yes, there is ikhtilaf on the matter of gatherings of singing qasidas — as well as reading the Qur’an and adhaan in a nice voice and the beard and halal meat and etc.. However, “why bring nasheed gatherings to America” – well there are many reasons:
(1) The overwhelming majority of scholars allowed them and even recommended them and so those who do it have a valid basis to base their actions on.
(2) The spiritual meanings of the poems encourage people to do good deeds and allow them to reflect upon religious meanings instead of unlawful music which only pollutes the soul with vulgar meanings and takes one away from the remembrance of Allah.
(3) It is a halal form of entertainment unlike unlawful musical instruments, unlawful TV shows, unlawful movies, and unlawful gatherings speaking idle talk. In these gatherings one can be entertained by enjoying nice voices, and nice poems, and at the same time learn deen.
(4) The scholars who prohibited it have a valid position, however as my teachers have taught me – it is impermissible to forbid the evil on something of which there is valid scholarly difference of opinion. Even in the case of the beard where the vast majority of scholars ruled of the unlawfulness or at least offensiveness of shaving it is still impermissible to condemn someone for having no beard because there is a valid weak Maliki opinion which says that it is sunna.
Fiqh is a very complicated science, especially the Maliki madhhab where we have many different manahij. Sh. Abdullah ibn Bayyah, with all do respect to him, is a great scholar (and he has a fatwa allowing group dhikr and mawlid if you want me to post them), but my teachers have been from the Moroccan al-Qarawayyin approach to the madhhab and not the Mauritanian approach and there are differences in these approaches especially on more controversial issues.
The reason why it is impermissible for lay men like myself to argue about religious matters is exactly what has occurred here. The only reason I have replied is to clarify exactly what I was talking about so as not to allow you to misunderstand what I was referring to.
Please pray for this sinner my dear knowledgable brother,
Omar.
“since the mawlid would be considered a ritual of worship”
This is not true. The nasheed gatherings are not considered a “new act of worship.” They are acts of worship in the same way that MSA meetings are acts of worship. As I said above, all of the scholars which allowed mawlid said that if this is believed to be a wajib in din, or a new act of worship, or that it is something which must occur on a certain day then it is haram and innovation.
The scholars who allowed mawlid understood it as seperate good deeds which were all done at the same assembly, it is not a new ritualistic act of worship. In an MSA meeting there is the (a) sharing of knowledge, (b) getting together of Muslims for good purposes, (c) enjoining the good and forbidding the evil, and (d) working for service projects in the community. All of which are good deeds and acts of worship. The MSA meeting is also done on a specific time and specific day every week. Yet we do not call this a new ritualistic act of worship.
The same thing with the mawlid it is the gathering of Muslims to do many different halal and mandub acts such as (a) teaching shari’ah knowledge, (b) reading or listening to Qur’an, and (c) singing nasheed. There is no qiyas because the sahaba and tabi’een did this as something normal in their lives, and we do too- anyone who says that this is a new act of worship to gather and sing nasheeds then this is haram.
Many Malikis absolutely prohibited singing the adhaan in a nice voice or at least said it was disliked because it is according to their proofs a disliked innovation. If you are working hard to steer away from differences of opinion how about you work to ban all sung adhaans in the United States because of that minority difference of opinion (minority in relation to the other 3 schools)?
I ask you for your du’as and masha’Allah for your memorization of the Qur’an, I ask you to insha’Allah pray for us all.
LOL with over 30 years of experience in dawah, you still don’t know sarcasm. ahhaha
alhamdulillah. please forgive my respected elder. i am still young and make statements which i dont literally mean.
iz all good uncle. inshaAllah if you wish to speak about the mawlid, then it is best to speak with a scholar then a layman like myself.
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