The End - 2000 to 2009

“Independence Day” – Sh. Abdullah Bin Bayyah

  • Author: MR
  • Filed under: Islam
  • Date: Jul 4,2007 | 12:47 PM

The Question:

“Is it allowable to celebrate a holiday that commemorates the independence of my country?”

The Answer:

“A holiday [that commemorates] the independence of a country is not a [religious] holiday. The holidays which are forbidden [for Muslims] to observe are those with religious overtones [such as Christmas and Easter*] not the festive gatherings people observe due to certain events. Therefore, people are allowed to celebrate wedding anniversaries, birthdays or any occasion as such celebrations are not related to religious holidays. It is imperative that we work to remove the confusion surrounding this misunderstanding and the doubts that have affected many people [regarding this issue]. [Because of this misunderstanding] people find hardship and difficulty in their religion. Especially when a religious minded person holds [such non religious celebrations] to be from the major sins or rejected acts when, in fact, they are not.

Understanding an Important legal maxim [The origin of things is permissibility unless there is a text to the contrary]

The origin of things is permissibility so there is no problem with you attending such an event. The school of Ahmed [Hanabliah] allowed the celebration of al-’Atirah which was a sacrifice, during the month of Rajab, observed by the people who lived prior to the advent of the Prophet [may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him]. Although the school of Imam Malik [Malikis] considered it disliked, since it was a practice from those days, the school of Ahmed allowed this practice since there was no text [from the Qur’an, Sunna or Consensus] that explicitly forbade it. Thus, this practice remained upon its original ruling, permissibility [here the sheikh is showing us how the scholars utilized the legal maxim mentioned above]. So, if people gather together to sacrifice there is no objection for them to congregate, celebrate, enjoy themselves and commemorate the independence of their country. Therefore, there is no hardship in celebrating such occurrences.

With regards to the statement [of the Prophet may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him] that “Allah [The Exalted] has given you better than those (feasts): Eid al-Adha (Sacrificing) and the ‘Eid al-Fitr”, then “those feasts” were those with strict religious over tones: one a Christian holiday and the other a pagan one. In addition, the Prophet [may the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him] mentioned that the Islamic holidays were two: ‘Eid al-Fitr and ‘Eid al-Adha. But it is not understood from this that he [may the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him] forbade people from gathering and celebrating [other non-religious occasions]. Even if a person considered [such gatherings] disliked there is no need for him to bother others by making things difficult that were not prohibited by the Qur’an, the Sunna, the consensus [of the scholars] and where no agreement was reached within the schools of Islamic law.

This is because ease in matters [such as these where there is no prohibition and the origin is that of permissibility] is a must, and those statements that create hardship and burden [related to such matters], that are not based on explicit texts [that prohibit them], are weak. Thus, there is nothing that prohibits us from facilitating such matters for the people and giving them some breathing room because ease and facilitation are from the foundations of Islam: Allah says, “And He did not make any hardship for you in religion.” [Surah al-Hajj 78] and “Allah wants to lighten your burdens.” [Surah al-Nisa V. 28] and “Verily, with hardship there is ease. Verily with hardship there is ease.” [Surah al-Sharh V. 5-6]. The Prophet [may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him] said, “Facilitate [things] and do not make things difficult. Give glad tidings, and do not cause others to flee.” In closing, we reiterate that the foundation of Islam is ease and the independent interpretation of the legal sources [ijtihad of scholars] is respected but is not [equal to] texts from the Shari’ah [Qur’an and Sunna].”

May peace be upon you
Dr. Abdullah Bin Bayyah

*according to the Maliki school it is disliked to offer congratulations to other faiths during their religious holidays. Thus, it is a permissible act. See Sharh al-Saghir of Sidi Ahmed al-Dardir and Fiqh al-Malikiyyah wa Adilatuhu by Habib Tahir. [translator]

www.suhaibwebb.com

Source: Imam Suhaib Webb’s blog


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  • 36 Responses for "“Independence Day” – Sh. Abdullah Bin Bayyah"

    1. Zahra July 4th, 2007 at 4:41 pm

      Assalamu alaikum, brother

      This comment isn’t related to your post, but here goes. I remember a while back, you posted up some links to Muslim voters’ guides for the Senate elections. With the presidential election next year, I was wondering if you knew of any Muslim voters’ guides that are available online for that. You don’t have to post them asap, but if you could keep it in mind for when Election Day ’08 nears, insha’Allah, it would be useful to those of us planning to vote. :)

      -A sister in Islam

    2. abu ameerah July 4th, 2007 at 5:10 pm

      Why not then celebrate the founding of the State of Israel? Can we celebrate the birth of Lenin? How about the anniversary of the Bolshevik Revolution? … Bastille Day?

      Can Chinese Muslims celebrate the anniversary of the Cultural Revolution in during Mao’s reign of power?

      St. Patrick’s Day? (I am sure that one our dear Sidi’s will come out with a fatwa saying that St. Patrick’s day is OK to celebrate as long as one doesn’t get drunk)

      Does Kwanza have religious overtones? Obviously it does, but why not find an excuse for that as well.

      Did the Prophet (saaws) or his Companions celebrate the holidays of ar-Rum (Rome or the Romans)? Did they celebrate the holidays of Persians? NO.

      I think the fatwa above completely misses the point on the real significance of holidays/celebrations of the disbelievers.

    3. Mujahideen Ryder July 4th, 2007 at 5:26 pm

      Celebrating State of Isreal? I doubt anyone would do that.

      Birth of Lenin? Sure, why not. Anniversary of the Bolsehvik Revolution? Yeah, if you want to, go ahead. Bastille Day? I won’t, cuz i dont know much about that day, but u can.

      Chinese Muslims can celebrate the cultural revolution. Nothing against Islam saying not too.

      Kwanza? Its only for black ppl. I guess if ur a black Muslim then yeah.

      Did the Prophet (saas) do it? No, but the Prophet (saas) didn’t do a lot of things that we can do today.

    4. abu ameerah July 4th, 2007 at 8:38 pm

      @ ryder:

      “Celebrating State of Isreal? I doubt anyone would do that.

      –Why not? You believe celebrating Communist holidays is OK…

      Birth of Lenin? Sure, why not. Anniversary of the Bolsehvik Revolution? Yeah, if you want to, go ahead.

      –WTF?

      Bastille Day? I won’t, cuz i dont know much about that day, but u can.

      LOL. I didn’t expect you to. Answer is that NO, ya can’t.

      Chinese Muslims can celebrate the cultural revolution. Nothing against Islam saying not too.

      –Let’s see a Revolution that overthrew people based on socioeconomic status, among other things. Yeah…sure it’s Halaal. (sarcasm)

      “Kwanza? Its only for black ppl. I guess if ur a black Muslim then yeah.”

      –Kwanza is a kind of religious holiday w/pagan roots. So, NO, it’s not Halaal to celebrate. I’m sure that as a Hansonite…you have a differing opinion.

      “Did the Prophet (saas) do it? No, but the Prophet (saas) didn’t do a lot of things that we can do today.”

      –So does that mean those things are right? Does it bring us closer to the Sunnah? Or are we just following our NAFS?

    5. haroon July 5th, 2007 at 1:16 am

      i’m really glad that you are here, oh abu ameerah, correcting these small time scholars like sh. abdullah bin bayyah. i like how you don’t need to cite any other scholars to back up your argument, because, frankly, who’s bigger than you? while i have your attention, shaykh, i must ask you, is it permitted to rowboat in the rain? please don’t quote any sources, they bore me, i am easily distracted, i just want your unadulterated wild guesses that obviously have nothing to do with your nafs. actually, if you could just answer my question with a short sentence that includes the words “halal” or “haram” (plz don’t confuse me with terms like “makruh” or “mandub”) and a few words mocking the opinion of some small-time internationally respected scholar, that would be great. thank you, and may we be protected from the hansonites and their love of alternative medicine, tie-dye and avocado (i mean, did the prophet (peace be upon him) eat avocado?, c’mon, right?)

    6. Mujahideen Ryder July 5th, 2007 at 1:45 am

      abu ameerah on July 4, 2007 at 8:38 pm said:

      @ ryder:

      “Celebrating State of Isreal? I doubt anyone would do that.

      –Why not? You believe celebrating Communist holidays is OK…

      Birth of Lenin? Sure, why not. Anniversary of the Bolsehvik Revolution? Yeah, if you want to, go ahead.

      –WTF?

      Bastille Day? I won’t, cuz i dont know much about that day, but u can.

      LOL. I didn’t expect you to. Answer is that NO, ya can’t.

      Chinese Muslims can celebrate the cultural revolution. Nothing against Islam saying not too.

      –Let’s see a Revolution that overthrew people based on socioeconomic status, among other things. Yeah…sure it’s Halaal. (sarcasm)

      “Kwanza? Its only for black ppl. I guess if ur a black Muslim then yeah.”

      –Kwanza is a kind of religious holiday w/pagan roots. So, NO, it’s not Halaal to celebrate. I’m sure that as a Hansonite…you have a differing opinion.

      “Did the Prophet (saas) do it? No, but the Prophet (saas) didn’t do a lot of things that we can do today.”

      –So does that mean those things are right? Does it bring us closer to the Sunnah? Or are we just following our NAFS?

      Well all your words of wisdom went down the drain when u said “WTF?”

      May Allah (swt) forgive you and us all. Ameen. I guess you will teach your children to say “WTF?” when they encounter a Hansonite.

    7. Mujahideen Ryder July 5th, 2007 at 1:46 am

      haroon on July 5, 2007 at 1:16 am said:

      i’m really glad that you are here, oh abu ameerah, correcting these small time scholars like sh. abdullah bin bayyah. i like how you don’t need to cite any other scholars to back up your argument, because, frankly, who’s bigger than you? while i have your attention, shaykh, i must ask you, is it permitted to rowboat in the rain? please don’t quote any sources, they bore me, i am easily distracted, i just want your unadulterated wild guesses that obviously have nothing to do with your nafs. actually, if you could just answer my question with a short sentence that includes the words “halal” or “haram” (plz don’t confuse me with terms like “makruh” or “mandub”) and a few words mocking the opinion of some small-time internationally respected scholar, that would be great. thank you, and may we be protected from the hansonites and their love of alternative medicine, tie-dye and avocado (i mean, did the prophet (peace be upon him) eat avocado?, c’mon, right?)

      😀 haha that was amazing! mashaAllah!

    8. IBO July 5th, 2007 at 5:39 pm

      haha i was thinking the same thing..
      “Well all your words of wisdom went down the drain when u said “WTF?””

    9. Hasan Mahmood July 5th, 2007 at 6:30 pm

      Actually there are a lot of scholarly sources that say celebrating Indenpendence day or any other holiday other than the two eids is bid’ah. And whats worse is that you are imitating the kuffar when you do these things. This is the first scholar I have ever heard of who has said celebrating the holidays of the kuffar are okay. Also, why would you celebrate the birth of the nation that hates you and your people :-/

    10. abu ameerah July 6th, 2007 at 12:51 am

      Uhhh…

    11. abu ameerah July 6th, 2007 at 12:54 am

      where did my comment go?

    12. abu ameerah July 6th, 2007 at 12:56 am

      @ Haroon:

      “i’m really glad that you are here…”

      –Thanks alot akhi! It seems like you’ve got your tail feathers in a bit of a ruffle though…

      “…shaykh….”

      –Who? Moi? I prefer the term SIDI for right now. I am thinking also about shaving my beard and wearing very stylish suits though. Then I’m gonna wear a gigantic red kufi to complete the whole look.

      –The problem with that is that I only own one suit at the moment. This is because all of my other suits have grown too small on my rather large frame. Plus I really do need to revamp my whole wardrobe. How can I wear a suit from ’99…like EWWW…that’s just sad! (said with a “valley girl” accent)

      “…who’s bigger than you?”

      –At the moment, nobody. Usually when I walk into a room or any gathering for that matter…I’m like the biggest guy there. So, I realize the need to lose some serious weight (with the help of Allah AWJ of course). No more snacking for me, inshallah!

      “is it permitted to rowboat in the rain?”

      –Well, you could Row-Row-Row yourself gently down the stream for all I care. Just make sure that you actually know how to row properly. Join a CREW Team and actually learn the process. I tried to join the CREW Team in high school ages ago…the problem was that I genuinely sucked. Were it not for the fact that I sucked so bad — I would be and international Regatta. Also, Haroon, you seem like a Paddle Boat kind of guy to me. Don’t worry about rowing.

      “…please don’t quote any sources, they bore me, i am easily distracted…”

      –Oh come now little one. There, there, don’t be so hard on yourself. I am confused a bit. First you wanted me to “cite sources” and complained about that Mr. Cranky — and now you say “please don’t quote any sources” ??? Whut up with that Bro??? Sounds like someone did have their afternoon nap.

      “…tie-dye…”

      –EWWWWWW! AS IF! That is like so 1969! (*rolls eyes*)

      “eat avocado?”

      –No Way! Avocado goes straight to my thighs!!

    13. abu ameerah July 6th, 2007 at 12:57 am

      @ RYDER:

      Ah yes…on to my favorite Guyanese Gangster. Sorry, it should be GANSTA! My bad…uhh…Yo.

      “Well all your words of wisdom went down the drain when u said “WTF?” ”

      –Typical. When we have no response…let’s just attack a minor use of language or incorrect grammar…or whatever deflects attention from the actual matter at hand.

      Amateur Hour akhi. Even someone of your caliber could’ve done better rather than simply parsing through my response and selecting three rather innocuous letters often used by hipsters like yourself.

      Let alone the garbage “nasheed” and Muslim Pop mumbo-jumbo out there…the contemporary hip-hop you listen to is rife with much worse. I suppose you’ve stopped listening to all of that stuff though, right?

      –Anyway, since you’re not particularly interesting in responding with coherent arguments, allow me to leave you with this:

      You are more than welcome to celebrate whatever holiday you chose Akh! Yep, whatever you want. You could even celebrate Russell Simmons Birthday if you want…I could care less.

      I mean, you believe that it is even Halaal to celebrate the anniversary of The Cultural Revolution in Mao’s Communist China. So I guess anything is up for grabs. If your gonna celebrate the 4th of July — then you must accept all that comes with that…like the State of Israel for example. Only “extremists” would not recognize Israels birth as a nation, right?

      Put the religious issues aside for a moment. Leave Shaykh Abdullah Bin Bayyah’s opinion for one second and leave the opinions of countless other scholars who hold opinions to the contrary. All of these other things withstanding, you should at least recognize the fact that the Birthday of this nation — and the Freedom this nation so proudly speaks of — was denied to some of the earliest MUSLIMS who came here on slave ships as nothing more than chattel (look the word up if you don’t know what it means).

      You might counter with…
      “THAT WAS THEN…We live now, with cool iPods and 2Oin rims.”

      Well then, as you celebrate…Muslims die as “collateral damage” in wars of occupation (things that are happening even if no state of Israel existed or “wahabis” for that matter).

      I guess waving a flag won’t change anything…so celebrate whatever you will…go ahead eat potato salad until it comes out of your ears…

      ***********************************

      @ Hasan M.

      “why would you celebrate the birth of the nation that hates you and your people?”

      –Good point akhi. But, what do they care?

    14. abu ameerah July 6th, 2007 at 1:02 am

      “I would be and international Regatta”

      DOH! Should be…

      *I would be an International Regatta Superstar*

    15. Mujahideen Ryder July 6th, 2007 at 1:04 am

      The only thing ppl do on indepedence day is watch fireworks. So if watching fireworks on the 4th of july =’s supporting isreal, then i must be a crackhead.

      I’m not chinese, so i could careless about the mae ze dong revolution. If you have a problem with the answer, contact Shaykh Abdullah bin Bayyah or Imam Suhaib Webb.

      suhaibwebb.com
      binbayyah.net

      Or maybe you should speak to Sh. Yasir Qadhi on the issue of watching fireworks on the 4th of July.

      Allah knows best

      Also just to let everyone know, Abu Ameerah doesn’t approve more than half of my comments on his site, while he approves bots like University Update.

    16. Mujahideen Ryder July 6th, 2007 at 1:06 am

      PS – Abu Ameerah and Hasan M should go to Saudi Arabia and hang out with Sh. Munajjid on Sept 23, 2007.

    17. Mujahideen Ryder July 6th, 2007 at 1:09 am

      Whatever happen to every Jummah being a holiday for Muslims?

    18. egyptchick7 July 6th, 2007 at 3:28 am

      Imma celebrate Bastille Day bc it’s my BDAY :) Holla July 14th!

    19. muslim brother July 6th, 2007 at 11:46 am

      hahah abu ameerah you rock! i guess t-pain is gonna buy MR a “drank” while they criticize your use of three upper case letters.

    20. abu ameerah July 6th, 2007 at 3:49 pm

      @ RYDER:

      “…careless about the mae ze dong revolution.”

      –Should I diverge from the topic and get into grammar related issues now? lol

      “Or maybe you should speak to Sh. Yasir Qadhi on the issue of watching fireworks on the 4th of July.”

      –Thanks akh. I’m already kinda clear on the issue myself though. For real though, you keep on doing whatever it is that you’re doing. Don’t let me stop you.

      –I would even recommend that you go and celebrate the Mardi Gras Festival in NOLA. Check out Bourbon Street…get a real feel for the local culture, if you know what I’m sayin’! It’s all good in the hood!

      “Also just to let everyone know, Abu Ameerah doesn’t approve more than half of my comments on his site, while he approves bots like University Update.”

      –OH COME NOW! Now you’re just attacking a brother for being lazy! Actually, the fact of the matter is that I — for whatever reason — no longer receive timely Comment Moderation Notifications in my EMAIL the way I used to. That invariably has resulted in a backlog of comments at times. To be quite honest RYDER…I think that there may only be like 1 comment of yours that I haven’t gotten around to approving. When my pathetic laziness subsides I’ll get to it, inshallah. Please forgive me in the mean time though! (Pleaseeeeee… with sugar and honey on top!)

      “…go to Saudi Arabia and hang out with Sh. Munajjid on Sept 23, 2007.”

      –I would akh…but I’m broke as joke at the moment. :(

    21. jinnzaman July 8th, 2007 at 1:41 am

      Hasan

      Lots of scholars have given rulings on “celebrating” holidays, such as Thanksgiving, etc.

      Shaykh Irfan Kabieruddin, a Hanafi Deobandi gave several fatawa concerning various holidays. What he said is in conformity with what Shaykh Bin Bayyah said: if its a religious holiday, then you can’t celebrate it. If its not a religious holiday, and it doesn’t conflict with another aspect of the Shari’ah (such as consumption of intoxicants, or impermissible gender interactions), then its okay.

      Just because the Prophet (sallahu alayhi wa sallam) didn’t engage in a particular action doesn’t make it haram. Thats what the legal maxim Shaykh Bin Bayyah was referring to: everything is permissible unless shown by the contrary.

      With regards to Independence Day, there’s nothing about that day that Muslims have to celebrate. The American “Revolution” was not revolutionary in any sense of the term. It didn’t change the overall social, economic, or political order of the time. It was merely a bunch of rich white dudes rebelling against a bunch of other rich white dudes. The American Revolution actually paved the way for the gradual extermination of the Native Americans and the seizure of their land. Not to mention the exploitation of African slave labor, which facilitated the global system of trade that we call capitalism. The American day of independence is not something to be proud of. If you wanna celebrate a holiday, celebrate the day that we all got civil rights. Thats a real achievement.

      Just because its permissible to celebrate it, doesn’t mean we should celebrate it.

      masalama

    22. Ahmed.A.A UK July 9th, 2007 at 6:25 am

      abu ameerah on July 6, 2007 at 3:49 pm said:

      @ RYDER:

      “…careless about the mae ze dong revolution.”

      –Should I diverge from the topic and get into grammar related issues now? lol

      “Or maybe you should speak to Sh. Yasir Qadhi on the issue of watching fireworks on the 4th of July.”

      –Thanks akh. I’m already kinda clear on the issue myself though. For real though, you keep on doing whatever it is that you’re doing. Don’t let me stop you.

      –I would even recommend that you go and celebrate the Mardi Gras Festival in NOLA. Check out Bourbon Street…get a real feel for the local culture, if you know what I’m sayin’! It’s all good in the hood!

      “Also just to let everyone know, Abu Ameerah doesn’t approve more than half of my comments on his site, while he approves bots like University Update.”

      –OH COME NOW! Now you’re just attacking a brother for being lazy! Actually, the fact of the matter is that I — for whatever reason — no longer receive timely Comment Moderation Notifications in my EMAIL the way I used to. That invariably has resulted in a backlog of comments at times. To be quite honest RYDER…I think that there may only be like 1 comment of yours that I haven’t gotten around to approving. When my pathetic laziness subsides I’ll get to it, inshallah. Please forgive me in the mean time though! (Pleaseeeeee… with sugar and honey on top!)

      “…go to Saudi Arabia and hang out with Sh. Munajjid on Sept 23, 2007.”

      –I would akh…but I’m broke as joke at the moment. :(

      You are by far the funniest brother ever! lool!!! your post is just hilarious and deserves a big REP .

    23. Ahmed.A.A UK July 9th, 2007 at 6:33 am

      jinnzaman on July 8, 2007 at 1:41 am said:

      Hasan

      Lots of scholars have given rulings on “celebrating” holidays, such as Thanksgiving, etc.

      Shaykh Irfan Kabieruddin, a Hanafi Deobandi gave several fatawa concerning various holidays. What he said is in conformity with what Shaykh Bin Bayyah said: if its a religious holiday, then you can’t celebrate it. If its not a religious holiday, and it doesn’t conflict with another aspect of the Shari’ah (such as consumption of intoxicants, or impermissible gender interactions), then its okay.

      Just because the Prophet (sallahu alayhi wa sallam) didn’t engage in a particular action doesn’t make it haram. Thats what the legal maxim Shaykh Bin Bayyah was referring to: everything is permissible unless shown by the contrary.

      With regards to Independence Day, there’s nothing about that day that Muslims have to celebrate. The American “Revolution” was not revolutionary in any sense of the term. It didn’t change the overall social, economic, or political order of the time. It was merely a bunch of rich white dudes rebelling against a bunch of other rich white dudes. The American Revolution actually paved the way for the gradual extermination of the Native Americans and the seizure of their land. Not to mention the exploitation of African slave labor, which facilitated the global system of trade that we call capitalism. The American day of independence is not something to be proud of. If you wanna celebrate a holiday, celebrate the day that we all got civil rights. Thats a real achievement.

      Just because its permissible to celebrate it, doesn’t mean we should celebrate it.

      masalama

      you say lots of scholars please list them down!! and for your information the deobandi muslims in the UK would not be so keen on your post i no for sure they would laugh at your post! why on earth would you want to celebrate independence day? i have not come across a single muslim in the united kingdom practicing or not! who would celebrate st georges day! or other public holidays! or wave the union jack flag! I dont no about much about muslims in the US but celebrating independence day what the….? is this your bid to please the goverment that you are intergrating with the society? stop kissing the hand that slaps you!

    24. Mujahideen Ryder July 9th, 2007 at 8:27 am

      abu ameerah on July 6, 2007 at 3:49 pm said:

      @ RYDER:

      “…careless about the mae ze dong revolution.”

      –Should I diverge from the topic and get into grammar related issues now? lol

      “Or maybe you should speak to Sh. Yasir Qadhi on the issue of watching fireworks on the 4th of July.”

      –Thanks akh. I’m already kinda clear on the issue myself though. For real though, you keep on doing whatever it is that you’re doing. Don’t let me stop you.

      –I would even recommend that you go and celebrate the Mardi Gras Festival in NOLA. Check out Bourbon Street…get a real feel for the local culture, if you know what I’m sayin’! It’s all good in the hood!

      “Also just to let everyone know, Abu Ameerah doesn’t approve more than half of my comments on his site, while he approves bots like University Update.”

      –OH COME NOW! Now you’re just attacking a brother for being lazy! Actually, the fact of the matter is that I — for whatever reason — no longer receive timely Comment Moderation Notifications in my EMAIL the way I used to. That invariably has resulted in a backlog of comments at times. To be quite honest RYDER…I think that there may only be like 1 comment of yours that I haven’t gotten around to approving. When my pathetic laziness subsides I’ll get to it, inshallah. Please forgive me in the mean time though! (Pleaseeeeee… with sugar and honey on top!)

      “…go to Saudi Arabia and hang out with Sh. Munajjid on Sept 23, 2007.”

      –I would akh…but I’m broke as joke at the moment. :(

      The point is, if a Muslim family want to get together and celebrate someones birthday and get a cake and eat dinner and take pictures. That’s fine, they can go ahead and do it.

      If someone wants to watch fireworks on July 4th, then go ahead, it’s fine.

      If someone wants to celebrate any non-relgious holiday like New Year’s, Birthday, Independence Day, Labor Day, etc. Then it’s fine.

      The problem with you (Abu Ameerah), Hasan, Ahmed A.A. and others is that you guys are taking it as either permissible because you do it and impermissible because you don’t do it. The reality is that because something is permissible doesn’t mean you have to do it. It also means you don’t have the right to condemn those who do it.

      Deobandis say smoking is permissible (not recommended – makruh), do you see deobandis smoking up? Salafis say eating the meat of ahlul kitab is permissible. Do you see most of them eating it? They mostly eat zabihah meat. The kuffar smoke and eat the meat. Are we copying the kuffar by doing this?

      To Hasan’s statement “why would you celebrate the birth of the nation that hates you and your people?”

      That’s a very uneducated statement. How can you live in this country then? There are things that are out of our control. Your own shaykh, Yasir Qadhi gave a lecture on this exact mentality and totally owned it at ICNA. You should ask him about this country and what our position is.

      If we were to adopt your type of thinking, we would ultimately end up making hijra to Muslim country and end up worse off.

      Allah knows best.

    25. abu ameerah July 9th, 2007 at 5:45 pm

      @ RYDER:

      1. Talk about missing the point akh….

      2. “…permissible because you do it and impermissible because you don’t do it.”
      –This makes no sense even by MR standards.

      3. “Deobandis say smoking is permissible (not recommended – makruh), do you see deobandis smoking up? Salafis say eating the meat of ahlul kitab is permissible. Do you see most of them eating it? They mostly eat zabihah meat. The kuffar smoke and eat the meat. Are we copying the kuffar by doing this?”

      –Let alone making not sense from an Usool al Fiqh perspective…this makes no sense even in terms of general logic.
      –Is this some kind of MujahideenRyder hip-hop style Carribean logic or something?

      4. “…end up making hijra to Muslim country and end up worse off.”

      –I suppose you know that for sure, right?

      5. BTW…just for the sake of clarification…I made sure to immediately approve all of your comments! I think I’ll just have to contact wordpress to deal w/ the missing comment notifications.

    26. Mujahideen Ryder July 9th, 2007 at 6:01 pm

      Akhi Abu Ameerah, what I meant when I said “permissible because you do it and impermissible because you don’t do it” is that for example, if you marry only 1 wife, that doesn’t mean marrying 4 wives is impermissible, because you didnt do that. If you didn’t watch fireworks on July 4th, doesn’t make it impermissible for others.

      Regarding the other examples with smoking and eating meat of ahlul kitab, I meant exactly what I stated above. I don’t quite see the link between “hip-hop style Carribean logic”.

      Regarding the “I suppose you know that for sure, right?”. It was a reponse to bro. Hasan, whom I know personally which was revelent to him.

      Allah knows best.

    27. concerned July 9th, 2007 at 7:49 pm

      salam aleykum…

      I would like to add a small comment to the discussion goin on over celebrating other than the two eid’s. I listened to a lecture a while back about the word Eid, its meaning and origin. Unfortunately cant remember who the speaker was but this a good question to ask hamza yusuf who like to derive meanings from words and show how that word can be divided into several meanings. however what i remember is eid is somethyng that returns every year contrary to what wikipedia says
      (The word Eid (IPA pronunciation: [i? d]) heard commonly is a generic word in Arabic for “festival”. )

      and is well known that we as muslims are ordered not to copy the mushrikeen and Abd-Allaah ibn al-‘Aas said: Whoever lives in the land of the mushrikeen and celebrates their Nawrooz (New Year) and their Mahrajaan (festivals), and imitates them until he dies, he will be a loser on the Day of Resurrection.

      was salamu aleykum

    28. muslim brother July 9th, 2007 at 8:16 pm

      deobandis that i have spoken to directly, such as Mufti Ibrahim Desai (askimam.org) say that smoking is Makruh TAHRIMI. According to Hanafi usul, Makrooh is of two categories. It is either
      1-Haram: which is a ruling based on daleel dhannee such as qiyas (like smoking)
      2-disliked.

      Smoking, according to the deobandis, falls under the first type of makruh.

      http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543740

    29. muslim brother July 9th, 2007 at 8:18 pm

      ps: when you say “Deobandis say smoking is permissible” you are implying “Mubah” not Makruh. Then you said, “not recommended – Makruh”, which i answered above anyways…

      be careful what you say man.

    30. Mujahideen Ryder July 10th, 2007 at 8:37 am

      muslim brother on July 9, 2007 at 8:18 pm said:

      ps: when you say “Deobandis say smoking is permissible” you are implying “Mubah” not Makruh. Then you said, “not recommended – Makruh”, which i answered above anyways…

      be careful what you say man.

      It’s very hard to mix English with Arabic to get a perfect translation. Makruh is not recommended but that doesn’t mean it’s impermissible. Agree? If it’s not impermissible then its permissible. It’s hard to explain. Mubah is permissible with out the “not recommended part”. So makruh and mubah are both technically “permissible” but makruh is the one “not recommended”. Ahh this is confusing, but I hope you get the point, inshaAllah.

      Regardless of anything. I believe watching fireworks on July 4th is permissible.

    31. Khalida Raufi July 10th, 2007 at 5:09 pm

      Asalamu Alaikum,
      Below is an article from Islam Q & A that has an opposite view and it would be educational for us to examine the reasons.

      http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?pg=article&ln=eng&article_id=93
      Wa Salam

    32. Khalida Raufi July 10th, 2007 at 5:16 pm

      Asalamu Alaikum,
      By the way, the reason there is a difference on the issue of celebrating the “non-religious” holidays is due to the following: Some scholars interpret the “Eid” or to be strictly to that which pertains to the religious holidays only. Others interpret it in a wider circle to include all holidays that ritually repeat and which people celebrate on a repetitive basis (whether they be weakly, monthly or yearly.) But anything that is non-repetitive such as a graduation party, etc. is okay because its not an Eid. When differences of opinion exist, Insha’ALLAH do not fight but try to sincerely follow that which is the correct opinion by sincerely seeking ALLAH SWT’s pleasure. This way you won’t go wrong because your sincerity would be with ALLAH SWT.
      Wa Salam

    33. haroon July 11th, 2007 at 2:04 pm

      that islam-qa fatwa i’m sure is sound (though not necessarily the only possible view) but i don’t see the necessity (or the veracity) of saying things like what i quote below. i just find it either really sloppy or profoundly intellectually dishonest. yes, there are quirks and real problems in the way that westerners in general structure their familial relations, but it’s like, how seriously would you take something written about muslims that was like, “Muslim families all ensure that they crush their daughters free will and subject them to menial tasks and repeated pregnancy in a loveless marriage with a man of the family’s choosing”. If that doesn’t sound like your family, the following doesn’t sound like mine, and it especially doesn’t sound like any (insert random non-Western, non-Muslim nationalities like Korean, Chinese, Polish, Mexican or Haitian_ family that I know of:

      Mothers in kaafir countries

      Those who study the situation of families in general and of mothers in particular in the non-Muslim societies will hear and read of strange things. You can hardly find any complete family whose members keep in touch with one another, let alone meeting and conversing or staying together.

      As some observers in kaafir countries have said: in the marketplaces or streets you may see a mother and her son or daughter, or a father and his son or daughter, but you will rarely see a whole family going shopping or walking in the streets.

      When the father or mother grows old, the best among their children hastens to put them in seniors’ homes. Some Muslims went to some of these homes and asked a dozen of seniors what their greatest wish was. All of them said, “Death!” That is only because each of them is living in misery, grief and regret for the way they have ended up and the way their children have deserted them at the time when they need them most.

    34. muslim brother July 12th, 2007 at 11:43 pm

      Mujahideen Ryder on July 10, 2007 at 8:37 am said:

      It’s very hard to mix English with Arabic to get a perfect translation. Makruh is not recommended but that doesn’t mean it’s impermissible. Agree? If it’s not impermissible then its permissible. It’s hard to explain. Mubah is permissible with out the “not recommended part”. So makruh and mubah are both technically “permissible” but makruh is the one “not recommended”. Ahh this is confusing, but I hope you get the point, inshaAllah.

      Regardless of anything. I believe watching fireworks on July 4th is permissible.

      [/quote]

      i get what you are saying about your translations/english. just saying to be careful.

      and be careful before you attribute opinions to ppl. without referencing or knowledge.

    35. abu ameerah July 15th, 2007 at 7:54 pm

      @ Khalida Raufi:

      Asalamu Alaikum,
      Below is an article from Islam Q & A that has an opposite view and it would be educational for us to examine the reasons.

      http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?pg=article&ln=eng&article_id=93
      Wa Salam

      — Uhhhhh (gasping for a breath of air)… You just quoted from one of those salafi/”wahaabi” (not my made up terminology) … wahabist/islamist … extremist/salafist Saaaaaaaaauuuudi websites. A’outhubillah! (lol)

      –Don’t say that I didn’t warn you if lightning were to strike!

      –The evidence in that link is known as the Ulema have dealt with this issue a long, long, long time ago. Thanks anyway, and watch out for lightning! (just kidding about lightning)

    36. Imam Suhaib Webb Joins Al-Maghrib Institute [Updates: 1] | Mujahideen Ryder's Blog July 31st, 2007 at 2:14 pm

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