Imam Suhaib Webb Joins Al-Maghrib Institute [Updates: 1]
- Filed under: Islam
- Date: Jul 30,2007 | 09:37 PM
UPDATE: Kevin Garnett to the Celtics! Suhaib Webb to al-Maghrib!
Shaykh Muhammad Alshareef has announced Al-Maghrib’s newest instructor, Shaykh Suhaib Webb. I can’t believe it! A madhab-following, tasawwuf-loving, al-Azhar scholar joining AlMaghrib Institute? SubhanAllah! He’s also listed as a SunniPath teacher! This might be a break of a new era in the North American ummah!
Looks like, MR will be taking some Al-Maghrib classes!
Imam Suhaib Webb – Lectures, Videos, Fatwas, Articles
SunniPath Answers from Imam Suhaib Webb:
- Feeling very lonely and depressed, and far from Divine Mercy
- What are the priorities in dawah to non-Muslim family members?
- What is the Guidance and Adab of the Qur’an and Sunna with Regards to Comedy?
- Discussing dreams with others
- Implementing the Sunna With Wisdom: What is your advice for implementing the sunna in college?
- Gender Interaction On Campus
- The Messenger of Allah and You: Reflections on the Birth of the Prophet
Translations
- Mawlid – Shaykh Abdullah bin Bayyah
- Shaykh Abdullah bin Bayyah on Group Dhikr
- “Independence Day” by Sh. Abdullah bin Bayyah
Vidoes of Imam Suhaib Webb:
- From Protest to Engagement
- Imam Suhaib Webb at the GPU 2006 – Unity talk
- SunniPath event with Imam Suhaib Webb
Post a comment with any more links of articles, videos and lectures by Imam Suhaib Webb
123 Responses for "Imam Suhaib Webb Joins Al-Maghrib Institute [Updates: 1]"
i find it hard to believe as well!
Imam Suhaib Web as I heard resigned from Sunnipath, I dont know if he still is ahlus-sunnah,…he may be a salafi..Allah Knows.
ASsalamualaikum,
You are greatly confused here bro. the imam mentioned above does not follow any Tareeq, he criticizes the hadra, Shaykh Nuh’s tariqa, etc. He does not follow a real Madhab. The ‘new azharis’ of his time are just pseudo Wahabi’s.
The discussion between him and Masud Khan on deenport and with Gibrl Haddad proved that.
This is a natural fit.
Salaam
I think this is great alhamdulillah
Imam Suhaib Webb is someone that we can all learn a lot from.
Thanks for Posting this Amir
What the heck is wrong with you! Not Ahl-Sunnah! AstagfirAllah. Go to Imam Suhaib Webb’s blog and you will find very tolerant articles of tasawwuf like here. He translates a few fatwas from Sh. Abdullah bin Bayyah who is the teacher of Sh. Hamza Yusuf.
Sh. Hamza Yusuf, Dr. Abdul Hakim Jackson, and many other pro-tasawwuf scholars and Muslim speakers are not in a tareeq but yet they support tasawwuf as a traditional Islamic science.
You don’t have to be in a tariqa to be tasawwuf-loving.
Allah knows best.
SubhanAllah, haters work fast! May Allah give us the ability to see His blessings as fast as we find ‘faults’. Allahumma ameen!
AlMaghrib and Imam Suhaib…it’s the best of both worlds, walhamdulillah! I think the AlMaghrib haters of the past should reconsider their opinions, with Shaykh Yasir’s softer da’wah style, AlMaghrib’s upcoming class of Tazkiyyatun-Nafs, and now the addition Imam Suhaib.
Definitely the beginning of a new era in NA, JazakAllah khayr for the update MR.
and Allah knows best.
how can you be tassawuf loving when you are criticizing the real tariqas of today? the only tassawuf they love is the imaginary one they have created in their minds.
Example: Sh. Hamza Yusuf does not agree with the hadra, nor does his teacher Sh. Abdullah bin Bayyah. Imam Zaid Shakir does though, but yet no matter there differences they still work together.
What’s so hard about that? If Imam Suhaib Webb doesn’t like a particular tariqa but still likes others, then what’s the big deal? Out of all the Muslims, the sufis and traditionalists should be the most tolerant to each other, but yet we act like the salafis ourselves.
Salaam ‘alaikum Sidi Amir,
InshaAllah this will be good for everyone involved.
ok MR………….. this is a groundbreaking reality change for almaghrib….its exactly the same kind of stuff weve heard from their teachers before, we like tassawuf, just not any real tassawuf practiced today, we like… salafi tassawuf…. i dont think mshareef changed his mind about the principles of almaghrib… do you really think he has?
Salam,
Can somebody please explain to me what is a Salafi and what is an ASWJ.what is the difference in their manhaj?
Please explain,i’m getting a bit confused here.
Yasir Qadhi has definitely changes, because I listened to him before and after and saw drastic changes. I discussed it here. I think Muhamamd Alshareef is looking to diversify Al-Maghrib Institute becuase he sees potential. Al-Maghrib is hated by many salafis from TROID to salafitalk.net to salafi publications to jihadis. It is clear that the only reason why many sufis and traditionalists hate on Al-Maghrib is becuase of Yasir Qadhi. Muhamamd Alshareef and the rest of the gang don’t really say much as YQ.
My point is, we need to get over the fact that Al-Maghrib is salafi, becuase in reality they can’t be salafi and accept madhabs and respect tasawwuf scholars like shaykh hamza, shaykh abdullah bin bayyah, imam zaid shakir and others.
It’s time we move foward, sufis, traditionalists, etc., we need to wake up and get moving. There is not a single traditional organization that can match Al-Maghrib. SunniPath is online only and Zaytuna is located in one area. There are hardly any traditional scholars in North America who can really work with the youth (college level and high school level).
I bet you can count them by your fingers, yet they can’t even come together to do something. I guess you can say Imam Suhaib Webb joinging Al-Maghrib Institute is a wake up call for us.
Very very interesting. I wonder what the future has in store for Al-Maghrib. Heck, I even wish I could join it, they should open up branches in the Middle East!
Purify our souls through sunnah-following tasawwuf, weird things excluded! No offence, MR !
Al Maghrib Scholars do not hate on madhabs. This was a blatant lie and May Allah (SWT) forgive those who spread it. In fact in Purification Act all Madhab Opinions were given and that almost made the class too dry if it werent for Shayhk Abdul Bary’s amazing story telling that class wouldn’t have been that great.
For Rizq management we concentrated on the Shafi school of thought but the gems in that class were for everone and beleive me there were a lot.
As salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu all,
The arrogance of a little bit of knowledge, and partisanship, is not exclusive to salafis. Every “group” suffers from it in some way, shape, or form, and maturity comes when the pursuit of knowledge is not a means of elevating oneself and one’s group, and it is the means by which one searches to please his Creator.
Life is short. Don’t waste it pursuing argumentation. I’ve done it, and I wish I would have spent that time grounding myself better in ‘Ilm. Instead, use limited time bringing yourself closer to Allah subhaana wa ta’aala, and yourselves, and your families.
Focus on developing your relationship with Allah subhaana wa ta’aala, making du’aa to Him, praying to Him, glorifying Him, and praising Him. Work on bringing your families and communities as you do yourself towards the ultimate and singular purpose for which you were created – to worship Allah subhaana wa ta’aala alone.
And leave behind the discussion and elevation of people. Instead, whoever of your teachers have benefitted you, pray for them, make du’aa for them, and insha’Allah, angels will be making the same du’aas for you. If you disagree with another teacher, then keep silent and let those who are better than you in knowledge discuss with them in private what needs to be discussed, and give naseeha where naseeha needs to be given. And if you disagree with them, then make du’aa that whichever of you is wrong is made correct so that both of you will fulfill your purpose.
Time is money, so spend it wisely.
Siraaj
“Out of all the Muslims, the sufis and traditionalists should be the most tolerant to each other, but yet we act like the salafis ourselves.”
I couldn’t have said it better myself. All I hear is how Salafis are really strict and stubborn in their way of thought but it seems to me that Sufis are as “Wahabi/closeminded” as it can get. We oftern forget that our main purpose in life is to be Muslim and not sufi or salafi. Shaytaan is probably laughing at how well hes doing and we’re all just caught in his trap.
Why are we so concerned over what one Shaykh might have said about another school of thought. They are Shaykhs… they know what we do not know so its better for us to keep our mouth shut. The area of discussion is only open to them, we can only choose a certain ideology and follow it. That does not entitle us to bad
mouth other Shaykhs.
I see a lot of propoganda being spread about Al Maghrib and how it is very anti-madhahib. I’ve taken Code Evolved and NOT ONCE did Shaykh Yasir Birjas endorse the removal of Madhahib. For the layman… A madhab may be the only way he can follow Islam correctly.
I don’t understand why we are creating so many problems out of nothing.
At the end of the day, We are Muslims and our enemy is Shaytaan not the sufi shaking his head all over the place or the other way around. So please chill and put everything in perspective before you start ranting.
alhamdulillah, imam sohaib webb is amazing, inshallah he’ll be an excellent addition to almaghrib….ameen
[...] Source: Mujahideen Ryder [...]
he became a salafi so therefore he is not on ahlu sunnah! …such ignorance and lack of knowledge these days subhanallah!!
Salams,
It is from the Sunna of al-Mustafa (sallallahu alayhi was sallam) that we put people in their proper places. With that,it is completely inappropriate and unjust to place Ustadh Suhaib at the same level as Sh. Hamza, Imam Zaid, et al.
Despite the “pop-like” popularity of the Ustadh, he is a student, not one that is to be sought out for Fatwa, much less, deciding what is or is not the “middle path”.
It is true that scholars differ on a variety of issues, such as the Hadra, but the problem here is that some people are not content to agree to disagree and live and let live, no, rather, they insist on pushing their opinion on everyone else and denying the valid difference.
It is painful to say, but so much of what passes for “traditionalism” is a farce. Traditional scholars did not have an issue with working with others that differ with them in issues of creed, hence the reports in our books of history speaking of the cooperation of the Ash’aris and Hanbalis–the problem is pretending that there are no substantial differences or that they are not important–in the name of working together.
If we can work with non-Muslims for common causes and social justice, of course we can work with fellow Muslims, but at the end of the day, we shouldn’t pretend that we are all in agreement.
The bulk of Salafis these days don’t have major issues with following Madhabs, so we should move beyond that and stop making that the focal point of contention. The new Salafis give good lip service to following what they call good Tasawwuf, but the “devil is in the details” as they say.
And some Salafis are even saying that they accept Ash’aris and Maturidis as a part of Ahl al-Sunnah. Then some of us, seek to validate Ahl al-Sunna by citing this. Thanks but no thanks. We don’t need the Salafis to validate Ahl al-Sunna through such statements.
And even if they believe that, (and good for them) they still believe in the common Salafi creed.
Its not about hating anyone, and Allah knows, it is simply about being clear about our positions and not watering down our own convictions for the sake of unity.
In sha Allah, all of us wish each other success, but let us be clear about our own positions.
I wasn’t comparing the knowledge or level of Sh. Hamza/Imam Zaid to Imam Suhaib, but rather how Sh. Hamza/Imam Zaid are different but yet work together.
Anyways everything else I agree with you.
no matter wht and how u say it, almaghrib WALKED THE WALK…everytime they said, we need to put intricate differences behind and unite togather under the umbrealla of sunni islam..they DID IT!!! alhamdulillah…i always luvedddd almaghrib but i luv them more now
I deleted a bunch of comments, because it was all useless talk due to my fault.
“And some Salafis are even saying that they accept Ash’aris and Maturidis as a part of Ahl al-Sunnah. Then some of us, seek to validate Ahl al-Sunna by citing this. Thanks but no thanks. We don’t need the Salafis to validate Ahl al-Sunna through such statements.”
Akhi, words can cause misunderstandings. ‘Validate’ is the wrong word to use when in the context of salafis affirming that Ash’aris are a part of Ahl-us Sunnah. It is more accurate to say that it is either an acknowledgement, a clarification, or both. Wallahu a’lam.
Siraaj
By the way, is it just me, or are is Suhaib Webb disappearing from the internet since the announcement? It seems that since this announcement, his blog has gone down, and every post made about his joining AlMaghrib Institute is popped off the AlMaghrib forums. I receive a lot of emails saying look at this and that about Suhaib Webb on AlMaghrib Forums (he talked on the forums, actually), but that thread was removed.
Allahu a’lam.
Siraaj
Siraaj..something must be wrong with your computer. The thread is still up on the forums. His blog is up as well.
It works on my computer. Check your internet connection. Re-start your computer.
Well, the blog is back up now (although it looks all disjointed and messed up as it looked previously for the past day or so), and I still can’t find his threads on AlMaghrib forums (I was able to find MR’s post on bringing him to NY).
Siraaj
Are you talking about the thread where Sh. Muhammad Alshareef announced Imam Suhaib Webb as the new instructor? Or there are other threads that Imam Suhaib Webb is mentioned?
Here’s the link to the Forums thread. http://forums.almaghrib.org/showthread.php?t=22248
Alright, I figured out the problem =D For some odd reason, I don’t have permissions when logged in to look at the ‘Announcements’ section. I logged off, and there it was =D Jazakallaah khayr for keeping me sane.
Siraaj
Siraaj – your right about Imam Suhaib Webb’s blog. on IE its weird, but on firefox its fine. it has to do with the css layout i think.
Asalamu alaykum,
I know him personally and he’s assured me that he has not turned his back on anyone but merely acting on, “And hold on the to rope of Allah, [together all of you] and do not split.”
Ibn Ajiba, your comment smells of a hater. Who are you to put someone in their place akhi? Are you a scholar who has the right to do so? If not, then you should refrain from talking. I know that, although he is not asked to give fatwa, he is around the top scholars in the world who can answer those questions for us. He’s an Azhari, the greatest Muslim institution in the world with the greatest scholars in the world. Thus, I feel very comfortable in his ideas and thoughts. Plus, I heard that he just finished his memorization of Qur’an and has received a few important ijazat.
Chill haters
Dre
Cool. It used to work in IE, but I guess that’s changed, for whatever reason. I use FF too, so alhamdullillaah, I was able to read the following from him:
http://www.suhaibwebb.com/blog/2007/07/31/announcement-on-the-announcement/
The Announcement on the Announcement =D
Siraaj
Alhamdulillah, this is awesome news. MR I like what you said here:
“It’s time we move foward, sufis, traditionalists, etc., we need to wake up and get moving. There is not a single traditional organization that can match Al-Maghrib. SunniPath is online only and Zaytuna is located in one area. There are hardly any traditional scholars in North America who can really work with the youth (college level and high school level).”
A graduate of one of the best Islamic Universities joins the best Islamic Educational Institute in North America. Takbir! Allaaaahu akbar!
Saqib
Salaamu Alaikum,
I asked a Scholar about the Salafi and Sufi tag-a-war he said the following
“Ibn Tammiyah has done nothing to us, nor Imam al-Ghazzali. They are pawns used by extremists on both sides to make us hate each other. Thus, it is sad that one could here the name of a scholar and develop such feelings. However akhi, we were victims of a vicious cult that preyed on young men like us”
The problems lies with the extreme wanna-be Sufis and the extreme Salafis who consider their Minhajs and Tariqas as the only way to Allah, they are dangerous people.
I ask myself what rights or in what mental state are you in to judge a man of God who has travel for the Sake of the Most High and say he is not from Ahlul Sunnah…Who Are You?..To make such hideous claims?
Only because someone does not agree with Shaikh Nuh or Tariqas—he is automatically out of Islam? Subhanna Allah, the people of Mauritania do not follow tariqas nor do they agree with the Hadrah or reciting the Burda in a group, what then?
Imam Suhaib is a man of Ahlul Sunnah whether people like it or not.
GOMEZ said:
They do recite the burda in a group.
MR,
My understanding (and I could be wrong)but I heard it from a brother who is my teacher and study with Murabitul Huj–is that its consider makruh to recite it in a group, but its done indivisualy.
But there are Scholars who hold the other opinion of reciting in a group is permisible.
Shaykh Muhammad Alshareef teaches us at AlMaghrib Institute, that when your daw’ah effort is successful, expect that 20% of the people will oppose you, for whatever reason.
It would be best if we looked forward to the good that can be brought to the Muslim community as a result of this, and how we can be a part of bringing that good, either by attending and benefitting ourselves, or getting involved and bringing others to the benefit, insha’Allah.
Siraaj
GOMEZ, you might be right actually, cuz I know they are mostly Malikis, and in the Maliki madhab, its not recommended.
alhamdulillah
i think he’s gonna teach seerah in the US coz shaikh muhammad cant get to the US. also, perhaps some fiqh courses.
this works perfectly for almaghrib: shaikh suhaib webb to teach seerah and shaikh yasir and shaikh waleed to teach aqeedah.
I wouldn’t call it “fatwas”
I ask myself what rights or in what mental state are you in to judge a man of God who has travel for the Sake of the Most High and say he is not from Ahlul Sunnah…Who Are You?..To make such hideous claims?
In sound mental state, because there is Ijma’a on the four madhabs of Islam, and someone who denies that and says the only right way is the way of my sheikh and me, is not from Ahlu Sunnah, they are still muslim tho unless they have issues with their imaan too…
A side point, Sh. Nuh is not the only sufi sheikh around nor is his tariqa. The salafis bash any meaningful tasawwuf and that is the problem. Disagreements on the hadra or burdah, or ne other practice is totally ok to have.
I’ll preface this by saying upfront that I like Ustadh Suhaib and I am working with AlMaghrib on a social service project.
That said:
Sidi Ibn Ajibah, from what I understand, is no “hater”. Rather he is himself a sincere student of knowledge and cares deeply about what is good for this ummah.
What “Dre” wrote in his comment is an unwarranted attack and typical of the “my gang vs. your gang” mentality that Ustadh Suhaiab has often spoken out against.
So perhaps you should check yo’ self before…
..well, you know the rest.
-Alex L.
“In sound mental state, because there is Ijma’a on the four madhabs of Islam, and someone who denies that and says the only right way is the way of my sheikh and me, is not from Ahlu Sunnah, they are still muslim tho unless they have issues with their imaan too…”
Not really, even Sufi’s believe that following a person guilde or Sheikh is the best option and more often then not some of the Sheikh’s opinion might be different then that of thier respective school of thought. This is another case example of Madhib extremists.
alhamdulilah. i love shaykh suhaib masha’allah. may Allah bless him in the dunya and akhira and make his trials easy
“There is not a single traditional organization that can match Al-Maghrib. SunniPath is online only and Zaytuna is located in one area. There are hardly any traditional scholars in North America who can really work with the youth (college level and high school level).
I bet you can count them by your fingers, yet they can’t even come together to do something.”
- MR
Amir, you know I love you, but I disagree with you on this. Although al-Maghrib is doing a tremendous amount of good work, don’t neglect the quality of students that have come as a cause of Zaytuna/SunniPath/traditional teachers. There was once a deen intensive at a campsite around Toronto more than 10 years ago. Students who attended were: Shaykh Faraz Rabbani, Shaykh Hamza Karamali, Shaykh Zahir, amongst others. At Zaytuna, they have motivated numerous numbers of students to study abroad whose collective knowledge is extremely deep. Remember, we don’t necessarily need numbers in this ummah, we need quality too. And this doesn’t mean just quality in advertising and making things look pretty, but most importantly, quality in ones belief.
Also, I think people have done teachers like Shaykh Hamza great injustices. Don’t forget who used to (and continues to) blow crowds away at ISNA and so on. His speeches alone have motivated thousands upon thousands of believers. Hundreds have come to Islam because of him. And some of those hundreds have become very serious students of knowledge who represent Islam in an amazing way.
This post is not to discredit al-Maghrib in anyway. However, it is to remind all of us the deep impact our traditional scholars have had and continue to strive for. InshAllah they can improve and learn from certain al-Maghrib techniques as well. In fact, we should all take the good and leave the bad.
Sufism is a scroupulous followin of the shariah, nothin more, nothin less. The only Rukhsa that is made, is when some greater reward can come out of it. For example what?, for example the tasbeeh after salah. The madhahib differ as to when the tasbeeh shud be done, one can make a rukhsa and take from another madhab if in his own madhab the dhikr is to be done first, then the sunnah, and he knows the sheikhs dars is going to start soon. So he can take the Rukhsa, pray his sunnas, n do the dhikr while walkin to the dars.
Or for example, the hadra. The hadra is a means to remembrancing Allah. However,it has karaha in some of the madhahib, and as we kno, ulema speak out against it. Well, because the means to an act take the same reward as the act itself, the hadra is considered mandub, n one can take a rukhsa out of ones madhab for personal enrichment. So, the rukshas are only for benefit, and not for following ones nafs, which is only the result of not following a Madhab of fiqh.
As for me, Im as shallow as the remarks make me out to be..but Allah does know best.
Though some may find my question irrelevant, I believe it is necessary for the students and those seeking truth to know what Suhayb Webb is upon, regardless whom he is loved by amongst the Muslims. Does Suhayb Webb believe that Allah ta’alaa is literally Mustaqirr upon his ‘arsh, as Ibn Uthaymeen and the Najdis believe? Or does he believe that Allah is not confined and has no makaan as the Asha’ris/Maaturidis believe, relegating all absolute meaning to the supreme knowledge of Allah ta’alaa?
Just Curious,
- Abul Layth
Assalamu alaikum
What class is he going to teach?
masalama
Imam Suhaib Webb said he was feeling sirah.
(Source)
BismillahirRahmanirRaheem
As-salamu’alaikum Abul Layth
I believe the series of articles on Ashari thought a few months ago on thetranslators blog pointed that out. I think if you check deenport archives it may answer your question.
-Yursil
Actually not. The vast majority of students who take AlMaghrib classes are not going to be scholars or shayookh. And SW is not going to be teaching Aqeedah classes anyway. Furthermore, the vast majority of Muslims do not know or understand the intracities of Aqeedah, which you mentioned. There are BIGGER priorities in our deen, like bringing people to practicing the basics, giving them the basics of Fiqh, Seerah, etc. So, I don’t find this question useful for most people. As for those for whom it IS significant, then they ALREADY know. If they don’t, they can find out by doing some basic research. I also question that if they do not plan to take any classes from Webb, why do they even care? And why do they care now when he joins AlMaghrib, whilst it wasn’t that important before.
In conclusion, let’s think about our intentions (and I am not saying that Abu Layth, you or anyone else has bad intentions) with regards to the questions and comments we place about students of knowledge, and to WHAT BENEFIT?
wallahualam.
ironic isn’t it, MR, that the first ad that appears on your page on the left is for Yasir Qadhi’s CDs!! Maybe its a sign
It also says “Yahir Qadhi”
LOL
Creed is relevant, it is by default the most important. It is this creed that makes us who we are; either puts us in the hellfire or in jannah. Without it, we may be lost, we may be muslims but in reality christians or part of the Bahai faith. The heart seeks nourishment through creed; maybe not the finer details that are meant for the serious students of knowledge, but tawheed period.
The whole point of this discussion is to know the stance of a new teacher, which may or may not start pushing traditional muslims to study with Al-Maghrib. It is knowing the beliefs of this brother which may cause many to go astray, because they may feel that now it is okay to take classes with AM because there is an instructor that is a bit more tolerant with Tasawwuf. What would then happen? They may take the ‘aqeedah classes, while ignorant, and go astray since Al Maghrib teaches an improper ‘aqeedah. This is THE point.
Yes, creed is important, Umm Layth? (just guessing, don’t kill me for it). But not the intricate details of creed because those themselves do not remove a person from Islam, and for many (including Hamza Yusuf, SW, Bin Bayyah and others), not even from the fold of ahl-Sunnah! So, your stretch to bahaism is not only unreasonable but also sensationalist in nature.
We know, for example, that Imam Nawawi had differences in creed (slight that they may be) from that of Ibn Taymiyyah, from that of Al-Ghazali. Does that mean we would not take from all three of them? No, rather people on both sides of the aisle (the intricate details aisle) take from all 3 scholars. Whoever emphasizes the differences to the exclusion of the overall similarities is causing more harm than benefit.
Yes, there is a time to study those differences and there is a time to hold on to them. Suhaib Webb’s teaching at AlMaghrib is not one of them… at least in my humble opinion.
Finally, shouldn’t we be worrying about the thousands and thousands of Muslims who are like astray in a MAJOR way, like not praying and not fasting, than to be worried about how some students may “go astray” because Suhaib throws an aqeedah curve-ball in the middle of a seerah class.
No one believes that Allah (SWT) is upon his Arsh. We confirm what the Quran says but we do not delve into the how. This is another lie, spread way too often, and the people that do it will be taken to account. (As I will be too
)
Samir you don’t know what you are talking about. We Salafi’s believe Allah is firmly upon his throne.
Ibn Taymiyya said in Majmu al-Fatawa
“The scholars approved by Allâh and His accepted Friends have narrated that Muh.ammad the Messenger of Allâh (swt) will be seated by His Lord on the Throne next to Him.”
in the same book
“The elevation of Allah over the Throne is literal, and the elevation of the creature over the ship is literal”
Sidi Amad,
Firstly, Jazaakum Allahu Khairan for taking the time to respond. Ma’rifah of Allah is THE fundamental issue of Islam. An important part of that ma’rifah is how one believes in Allah ta’alaa. One attempting to minimalize the differences between the pseudo-salafi doctrine and that of the traditionalist doctrine that Imaam An-Nawawi/Al-Hafith Ibn hajr/As-Subki/Al-Juwayni/Ghazzali/Ibn Al-Jawzi/Hafih Al-Iraqi and the millions etc believed in, oh noble brother, is simply ignoring the differences between the Sunnah and Bida’ah.
Before fasting, Salaah, and the other waajibaat, one must know the WHO and the WHAT one is worshipping. If this issue were so irrelevant, noble sidi, why would the Hafith of ‘Iraq, Zaynud-Deen Al-’Iraaqi state about Ibn Abdul Barr,
“He is one of those who hold that Allah ta’alaa has a direction, therefore beware of him!” [Tarh At-Tathrib]
He was not speaking to the scholar who already knows the situation of ibn Abdul Barr, he was speaking to the seeker, the student, cautioning the Muslims from taking their creed from him.
It is also for this reason that the earliest of Muslims, including Imaam Abu Hanifah and his associates abandoned Jahm and Muqaatil. Ibn Hajr quotes in his Tahtheeb:
“Muhammad ibn Samaa’ah reports from Abu Yusuf from Abu Haneefah that he said, “Jahm [ibn Safwaan] was so excessive in denial that it was stated that he was laysa bi-shay (he is with nothing, or worth nothing etc). Muqaatil was so excessive in affirmation (al-ithbaat) that he made Allah like his creation.”
It is necessary for the traveller to be weary of whom he learns from. You may consider Salaah more important than knowing Allah ta’alaa and his sifaat, but that was not the instruction of our beloved (‘alayhis salaam) when instructing Mu’aadh to call to La ilaaha Illa Allah firstly, only upon its acceptance was Salaah called too. Before one can affirm Allah as the only, one must know whom Allah is. Is he a body? Does He LITERALLY come down to the lowest heavens – translocating himself as some of the old Hanbalis claimed? Can he incarnate himself? Did he come in human form? Can the eyes grasp Him? Is he baa’in from the makhlooq? Is he literally on the created throne?
These questions are necessary to have answered. More than 1/3rd of the message of Islam revolves around Allah and Who He ta’alaa is and what he is not. Due to the fact that it is necessary knowledge, erudite scholars such as Imam At-Tahaawi wrote simple treatises for the lay Muslim to know their Lord correctly. It is not a difficult matter, as some attempt to make it. Laysa kamithlihi shay can even be understood by a child.
As for the statement that “details” do not remove one from the millah, or even from ahlus sunnah, then in my view this is an error. Imam Abu Muhammad As-Subki Al-Azhari made it clear within a well known fatwaa where he was asked about the one who believes Allah ta’alaa is literally sitting on his throne etc saying, “the judgment is that this belief is invalid, and the one who believes it is a non-Muslim by the consensus of those who count among the scholars.” Read the entire text here: http://www.marifah.net/articles/fatwaazhar-mahmudkhattab.pdf
This is the stance of the Azharian scholars and the stance of the A’immah of the past. Tashbeeh, tamtheel, and attributing to Allah ta’alaa what is unbecoming of Him is kufr. Please do not misunderstand me brother. I am not making takfeer of the ignorant wahhabi and salafi-claimers. I am simply stating that to deny the importance of the “details” is not the stance of the A’immah of Ahlus Sunnah. Knowing Allah ta’alaa is the crux of the deen. The doctrine of Islam is the most important matter of Islam. It is primary whereas Salaah etc are secondary as is shown by the method of revelation and the instruction of the beloved (‘alayhis salaam). If you believe Allah is literally on a throne, that is your creed. It is not the creed of the vast majority of ‘Ulamaa’ and the A’immah of the past.
Jazaaka Allahu Khairan Sidi Yursil, but I just would like to know what his creed is. If someone could just make it known please.
And about the “curve-ball” in a sirah class, then how many “curve-balls” has Yasir Qadhi thrown around about Tasawwuf and its adherents such as the late Sidi Al-’Alawi who was recognized by his comrades in faith as a Jurist, Wali, and orthodox scholar of Islaam! Frankly, brother, those of us who deem the tradition of this Ummah sanctified are unwilling to sit or even associate ourselves with those who do not. If you want to help the poor, feed the needy, speak against the tyrannical ways of the secularists, command the good and forbid the evil, we are with you. If one wants to promote a deviant creed, one that classifies the Asha’ris and Maaturidis as deviant, one that affirms Allah literally sits upon a throne and translocates, who has literal hands and face etc – as the psuedo-salafis say with their lips, then it is necessary for those who cling to the sanctified creed of the Imams of the past to shun such deviance and promote truth.
That is my humble opinion, and you have the right to disagree. I strongly believe you are mistaken and I strongly disagree that any of the mureeds of tasawwuf should have anything to do with the pseudo-salafi doctrine being taught by Yasir Qadhi and the Maghribites. For every penny paid to these people, more take their misguided classes on creed, and more believe Allah literally sits upon a throne, has a literal hand, shin etc.
Jazaakum Allahu Khairan Sidi Ibn ‘Ajibah for your earlier response.
-Abul Layth
Why is everyone discussing this?
Abul-Layth, you know I could get into this with you and we can go round and round about why and how you are the one who is denying the literal word of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger, while you will claim that your ilm (based mostly on ilm-al-kalaam) interprets this in a completely different manner. Whether you made direct takfeer or not, it is clear that you really imply that all the scholars (the athari/salafi, and lets not get into the differences between these two) are not Muslims because indeed they do believe in literally what Allah’s Spoken Words tell us. What about Ibn Taymiyyah… was he a Muslim? Only the evil sect of Ahbaash believes him and about a million other scholars as kaafirs. As to Allah’s Istiwa, indeed He rose upon His Throne, and that is the translation of Istiwa ala’ al-Arsh. Notice, I translated plain Arabic into plain English, I didn’t interpret it, neither did I do ta’weel of it to make it suitable to our minds. If we keep going down this route of taweel, then we would have to deny all attributes of “similarity” (in meaning and not howness) like seeing, hearing, and so on. We do not ask how and why, indeed it is those who delve into the how that end up denying His Attributes. We keep it simple, the way it should be.
In any case, I refuse to further delve into this with you because this post is NOT about Allah’s Istiwa, so this will be my last response on this issue– you can of course free to keep saying what you wish. In fact, most people probably don’t even understand half of what you are saying… esp. if you pick out an average Muslim from the street. If the matter was indeed fard knowledge, then I am afraid many of the Muslims will utterly fail.
Finally, I find this amusing in an ironic way. Sometime back I would be arguing the same way as you are, from the other point of view and being as dramatic and insistent as you. In fact, your style, with all due respect, is not dissimilar to what we call the ‘super salafis’ on their insistence on making the intricate details of Aqeedah the complete criterion for wala wal bara’.
Love you MR, even if u r a half-baked sufi. And I love jinnzaman too, and many other “traditionalists”… we can agree to disagree on the small issues and make hay on the bigger ones. Alhamdulillah for moderation!
My bets on AlMaghrib… world series baby!
Assalamu alaikum
The core issue is not what Imam Suhaib believes, since there is bitter ikhtilaaf on certain doctrinal issues on matters that require ijtihad. Rather, what is more important is what he believes about those who have a different ijtihad from the manhaj that he follows. The Ashari debate on Deenport was particularly alarming because instead of Imam Suhaib rescinding his statement concerning the Asharis, he attempted to defend arguments against them.
I think the real question that needs to be presented to not only the Imam but all of the Al Maghrib instructors is how they feel about the aqeedah, fiqh, and tasawwuf of the majority of the ‘Ulema both today and in history. If they feel the Asharis are the people of bid’a, then they should be up front about it instead of indoctrinating the unsuspecting masses with the belief that the only authoritative and valid tradition is those espoused by that organization.
Many times have we heard the slogan of ‘unity’ from various groups which has lead to greater fitnah than before.
I love Imam Suhaib Webb and Al Maghrib for the sake of Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) and even the greatest opponent of their manhaj must be sincere with themselves and Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) and recognize that they have brought hundreds, if not thousands, of people back into Islamic practices. What differences we have should be discussed precisely and we shouldn’t make generalizations. Lets discuss these issues in a positive and constructive manner and call for clarification rather than condemnation.
May Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) give us all hidayah and grant us tawfeeq. Ameen.
masalama
This is great news. This should bring even more people to almaghrib. And lol @ calling Suhaib webb a pseudo wahhabi.
Unity seems more like a guise than anything else, as when one gets into the details, the name calling and accusations of Biddah arise very quickly. This is ever apparent in the above post made by Amad in repsonse to Abul Layth or even vice versa.
Shaikh Yaser Qadhi and Shaikh Waleed Basyouni can aim for unity and sometimes even speak well about other Muslims, but the truth of the matter is that within inner circles and their actual teachings, they will always tend to label scholars of the past and people of Ashari and Maturidi backgrounds as Ahl Biddah.
Shaikh Waleed Basyouni has a whole cd series dedicated to sects, and there is a cd on Asharis & Maturidis which will give you an idea of where he stands. After listening to that, I doubt he would ever change his views. If anything, just tone it down when talking to masses, just like Yaser Qadhi.
SW will be a great asset to Al Maghrib, but I was upset when he went on the anti-Ashari rant via deenport since the Azhari stance is usually in line with Asharis. I remember on Al Maghrib forums when many students were trashing talking the noble teacher after his article on mawlid.
Surely Allah knows best.
did i just read a possible statement of takfir by a “traditionalist”??? oh, no the world is round!
come on fellas, stop being so close-minded … see the bigger picture
We all agree that Allah is One and that He is not like His Creation in any manner whatsoever.
And if ur one of those “super knowledgable” (sarcasm noted) people who are too elite to learn from almaghrib, sunnipath, zaytuna AND sacredlearning then i feel bad for u, cuz ur missing out.
I enjoy the variety of institutions. 90 percent of the content (if not more) is the same!
EVERYTHING is not about ashari vs. traditionists! pple get out of ur cocoons and get a taste of reality. spend ur time making dua for the brothers and sisters around the world suffering from injustice at the hands of other human beings!
And Allah surely knows best!
I re-iterate my earlier post for those who missed it the first time:
As salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu all,
The arrogance of a little bit of knowledge, and partisanship, is not exclusive to salafis. Every “group” suffers from it in some way, shape, or form, and maturity comes when the pursuit of knowledge is not a means of elevating oneself and one’s group, and it is the means by which one searches to please his Creator.
Life is short. Don’t waste it pursuing argumentation. I’ve done it, and I wish I would have spent that time grounding myself better in ‘Ilm. Instead, use limited time bringing yourself closer to Allah subhaana wa ta’aala, and yourselves, and your families.
Focus on developing your relationship with Allah subhaana wa ta’aala, making du’aa to Him, praying to Him, glorifying Him, and praising Him. Work on bringing your families and communities as you do yourself towards the ultimate and singular purpose for which you were created – to worship Allah subhaana wa ta’aala alone.
And leave behind the discussion and elevation of people. Instead, whoever of your teachers have benefitted you, pray for them, make du’aa for them, and insha’Allah, angels will be making the same du’aas for you. If you disagree with another teacher, then keep silent and let those who are better than you in knowledge discuss with them in private what needs to be discussed, and give naseeha where naseeha needs to be given. And if you disagree with them, then make du’aa that whichever of you is wrong is made correct so that both of you will fulfill your purpose.
Time is money, so spend it wisely.
Siraaj
LOL, asharis and traditionalists are on the same side.
Basically the aqida problem amongst the sunnis is the athari (today-salafi) vs ashari/maturidi.
I think all the scholars from both sides should come up with the “Unity Aqida” and basically take all the agreeing points from all Sunni theological backgrounds and combine them in the “Unity Aqida”. All the differences can stay where they are and people can still discuss it and talk about it, but for the general population and mass of Muslims (like me) they teach the “Unity Aqida”.
ALLAH HAS A FORM AND AN IMAGE AND HE HAS HANDS AND A FACE AND TWO EYES AND WE AFFIRM ALL OF THIS, HE IS ESTABLISHED ON THE THRONE, AND HE IS UNLIKE CREATION.
Allah has a direction. It is innovation to say otherwise.
In this thread the author very clearly shows that it is an innovation to say that Allah exists without a place and without a jism (body)
http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=8&Topic=1138
very simple!!!
also this article will explain it properly!!
http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=8&Topic=3479
ALLAH HAS A FORM AND AN IMAGE AND HE HAS HANDS AND A FACE AND TWO EYES AND WE AFFIRM ALL OF THIS, HE IS ESTABLISHED ON THE THRONE, AND HE IS UNLIKE CREATION.
Allah has a direction. It is innovation to say otherwise.
In this thread the author very clearly shows that it is an innovation to say that Allah exists without a place and without a jism (body)
http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=8&Topic=1138
very simple!!!
also this article will explain it properly!!
http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=8&Topic=3479
i think the real issue has not been discussed– the fact that now Imam Suhaib’s classes will be charged murderous prices.
That is so true! I think Al-Maghrib can afford to drop the price.
Assalam-o-Alaikum to all. One thing I have learned over the period of time talking to many scholars from different backgrounds, the way they talk and we (common non-scholar) people is very different. It seems we are always at each other arguing and fighting tone, while true scholars despite disagreements are usually very respectful of each other, and their criticism is more of academic in nature than bashing. I thing we need to learn this from them.
It is true Shiekh Yasir Qadhi and Sheikh Waleed Bassyouni are of aqeedah that is different from ashari/maturidi one. But they keep emphasixing in their lectures (personally heard from them), that we all are sunnis, and we should love them.
Sheikh Waleed once was quoting Imam Ghazali (RA) and said word rahamtullah alai, after his talk, I asked him, why quote Imam Ghazali (RA) and why say Rahmatullah Alai after his name. And he said, because he was islamic scholar and a muslim, and we should ask for Allah’s mercy on everyone.
bro the costs are quite high. room bookings, hotel bookings for the shuyookh, flight expenses, advertising (those nice color posters and postcards), binders, etc. all add up real quick.
i really don’t know why people complain about the cost (its a general comment, not aimed at anyone). subhan Allah, people are willing to dish out $700-1000 per course in a secular university, but when it comes to learning the deen, $165 is too much? and for the amount of information you get, $165 is peanuts in my humble opinion.
very true, shaikh yasir was very adamant about telling people that the asharis and maturidis are sunnis in light upon light. he criticized their aqeedah in detail using proofs from Quran, Sunnah, statements of the scholars of the first 300 years of Islam and statements from later scholars like ibn abd albirr, ibn taymiyyah, etc. (he in fact gave a book list of 43 books that were all written in the first 300 or so years of Islam that say exactly the same things as were taught in light upon light).
it was a very academic criticism, unlike here (and everywhere else when laypeople like us talk).
Shaikh Yasir means by his statement that the Ash’aris/Maturidis are sunnis, that they are generally from Ahl al-Sunna, i.e. they are not from the Shia. It is not the same as saying that the Ash’aris/Maturidis are from Ahl al-Sunna/People of the Truth etc.
What Ibn Ajibah said is what I was trying to say in my post. It’s all a guise, unity can only exist within each group itself because these scholars will condemn Asharis and Maturidis any chance they get. Same with Sufism.
You also get Salafis who claim that all these Ashari or Sufi scholars repented at the time of their death in order to take the claim of these valuable scholars of our religion.
Astagfurallah
I dont think it is a guise as such. It is their belief. If they say that the Ash’aris and Maturidis are Sunnis–meaning that they are not Shia–and leave it at that, many would get the impression that they are somehow “moderating”. The reality though, is that if asked for more detail, they will clearly say that this does not mean that they believe the Ash’aris and Maturidis are from Ahl al-Sunna (at least in the areas where they differ from them).
But lets be real here. Those of us who are Ash’aris or Maturidis can also say the same thing–that salafis (or “Atharis”) are sunnis, in that they are not Shia. If we are pressed, we will say that we don’t believe they are Ahl al-Sunna (at least in the areas where we differ from them).
Despite what many think, this is not necessarily tantamount to Tabdi’ (imputing innovation) from either side.
If anything, not much has changed since the days of conflict and fighting between the Hanbalis (here referring to the so-called “salafi/Athari” creed) and Ash’aris in Baghdad, or the fighting and disputations that took place between the Qudama family and the Asakir family.
As a note to Ash’aris, many of the historians mention that the Hanbali Shaikhs–despite their harshness–were alot milder than the common folk that followed them. Historical reports show us that most of the Fitna came from the ignorant uncouth ones among Shaikh Ibn Taymiya’s followers.
We also see in history that despite the fighting between the Hanbalis and Ash’aris, in critical moments, they came together, be it for fighting an invader (eg. the crusades), or for establishing social justice (e.g. Sharif Abu Jafar joining with the Ash’aris to fight against some wayward criminals and brigands).
The differences didn’t go anywhere, yet they were able to work for the common good.
Perhaps the major problem we have with all of this here is that, unlike the past, where the cooperation was in matters of defense or common social problems that affected the whole society, here, the supposed cooperation that we are asked to take part in revolves around teaching sacred knowledge and spreading it. This causes both groups to get extra sensitive to any real or perceived slights against what they believe to be the truth.
In the past, that didn’t seem to be the case. In the past, it was a matter of joining forces for strength through numbers in order to repel a common foe, or remove criminals from the streets. Today, it is a matter of coming together to help the Muslims learn there Din.
What are the solutions??? Allah knows.
Ibn Ajibah you make some really good points. I really do believe that there is a lot of Islamic knowledge that we DO agree on. And if a person has his fundamentals in order (whichever way they are), he can benefit from the “common” knowledge to the exclusion of differences. In the end, Allah burdens a soul to the extent the soul can bear. Indeed wallahu alam.
Well, yes, I agree. Teaching Fiqh would work no matter what the teachers persuasion is. If they are of the moderate Salafi persuasion that doesn’t take the ultra anti Taqlid stance that is fast dying out among salafis, they can teach Fiqh according to one of the schools if qualified and benefit whoever, no matter what their views are on controversial issues.
The same goes for the Sirah for the most part (although a teacher might be inclined to use aspects of the Sira to emphasize or prove a point of contention between the two groups).
With Usul al-Fiqh its a bit thorny. It really depends. Probably for the real basic outline of the science, it wouldn’t matter who the teacher is, as long as they are qualified. However, the more advanced it gets, the teachers own preference will come out as it relates to the theological rhetoric (Ilm al-Kalam) that forms the bulk of Usul books.
Hadith sciences should be neutral hopefully.
Tazkiya issues I wont even touch.
Aqida is out of the question
Arabic language at basic levels is a go.
Hmm, what else is there? History might prove contentious, as people have different views of historical events. But that is workable.
May Allah guide us all.
MR and I have a project to put the “common issues” list together… right MR? Ibn Ajibah has provided a good start!
Yes we do. I think we need to do like some kind of questionaire and send it out to all the popular mainstream Sunni scholars: Zaytuna teachers, Al-Maghrib teachers, SunniPath teachers, Deobandi teachers, etc. We’ll explain to them, the point of this is to show the majority of Sunni scholars are united upon the following things, etc.
JazakAllah khair Sidi Ibn Ajibah for the ideas.
But MR, you are disunited on major, major issues. So what is the point? Just like Ibn `Ajibah mentioned: We are sunnis, but that means we aren’t shi’a. They may say the asha’ari scholars made mistakes (in their eyes), but if someone was to be an asha’ari do you really think they’d be welcomed in their circles? What ever happened to Yasir Qadhi calling Shaykh `alawi a Mushrik? Yes, it was deleted. But why? The uproar of the Sufis was why. I think Ibn Ajibah is 100% right when he says that the asha’aris/maturidis and the salafis can unite but not in issues of deeni knowledge (except a few). Join SunniPath and Zaytuna to learn.
That’s fine Umm Layth. All we need (well Amad and I) to do is get everything that everyone agrees upon and list them. I am sure that their are plenty of similarities, inshaAllah.
I for one really appreciate it when people, no matter who they are, are objective and intellectually honest. In sha Allah, all of us should strive for that and challenge ourselves and admit when we fall short–and we all do from time to time.
One of my Shaikhs instructed me to read at least 100 pages from Imam al-Ghazali’s Ihya in the span of a year. Just now, I was reading from it, in the section on the ‘Afat al-Lisan’ or; The Negatives Concerning the Tongue. He said:
Negative Number Twenty
Asking the common people about the attributes of Allah the Exalted and His speech and [asking]about the letters and if they are pre-eternal or emergent. It is appropriate for them [the common people] to busy themselves with acting upon the Qur’an–however, that is heavy upon the souls, whereas extraneous matters are light upon the heart. The common person takes delight in delving into knowledge, for it is Satan that causes him to imagine; ‘You are from the scholars and the people of virtue.’ He [satan] will not desist from making that beloved to him until he speaks in matters of knowledge that constitutes unbelief, whilst he knows not.
Every enormity that the common person commits is safer for him than speaking on matters of knowledge–especially matters that concern Allah and His Attributes. The only concern for the common people is to be engrossed with the outward acts of worship, faith in that which is in the Qur’an,and submitting to what the Messengers have brought without going into detailed research.
For them to ask about anything other than that which concerns the outward acts of worship is exhibiting bad manners, for which they deserve the wrath of Allah the Exalted and Sublime, and it causes them to expose themselves to the danger of unbelief….
…Therefore, for the common person to ask about the obscure matters of the religion, it is indeed from the the greatest of negatives and it kindles tribulation/controversy (fitan)–so it is a must that they are dissuaded and prevented from that…
End quote
Of course, the Ash’ari reads this one way, and the Salafi another, and alot can be said regarding the actual need to clarify creedal matters from scholars…
Allah Alam
Famous “Traditionalist” Scholars, (they will go un-named since I dont like causing fitnah)
have accused all Salafi’s of falling into anthropomorphism. Which quite frankly is a Politically correct way of of saying they have fallen into shirk. To put this blame on side and make Salafi’s out to be the intolerant ones is sheer propoganda.
I am going to take Siraaj’s advice and back off after this post. I re-iterated what I have learned from the past. If i made any mistakes, May Allah (SWT) forgive me, but I am pretty sure I didn’t. If someone knows where noone is coming from can they please email me personally. samireyex@gmail.com
Wa Alaikum Assalam,
Samir,
Among the scholars you are referring to is Sheikh Nuh Ha Mim Keller. His explicitly stated in the 1998 Virgina lectures (available for free at http://shadhiliteachings.com/ ) that he does NOT consider Ibn Taymiyyah and others who believe what is understood from them to be anthropomorphic, to be mushriks, kafirs are anything of the sort. Rather he says they are Muslims who did not have tawfiq in their understanding of that matter.
It is not the same thing.
Actually, if you look at the cost it takes to run an AlMaghrib event, it’s actually a lot cheaper than you might realize.
Nonetheless, AlMaghrib is offering many incentives. There are now group discounts:
1. 10 people pay as a group two weeks before class, price for each is $135.
2. Huffaadh Discount: Anyone who’s a hafidh can take one class per year for free.
3. Family Discount: The more members that take classes, the more the price drops.
4. Qardh Hassan: Anyone who wants to do a payment plan can send in pre-dated checks according to how they can afford it.
5. Scholarships: If a qabeelah raises money in the community, AlMaghrib will match up to $660 (4 scholarships).
6. Qabeelah help: Many qabeelahs (like Wasat) will simply raise the money in the community to help students in need.
Many people have complimented what an excellent job AlMaghrib has done in terms of quality of teaching the knowledge and impacting the students taking the class, but everyone wants to gripe about the price. At the end of the day, if someone doesn’t have money, but wants to take a class, a way will be made for them to take the class through either the Qabeelah or HQ in Canada. I know this because I deal directly with them, and we always make the effort to help everyone. No one who wants ‘Ilm is turned away because of money.
Siraaj
regarding almaghrib – after being involved in helping to run one qabeelah i can say with complete certainty that we never turned anyone down because of finances – in fact for a few classes there were scholarships left over and we couldn’t find people to take them.
the $$ thing is just a lame excuse (sorry to be blunt) that people use to attack almaghrib just because they don’t like it. zaytuna minara charges $65 (or 85 i think) for their ONE DAY program. almaghrib’s one FULL WEEKEND class is $85, and 2 full weekends is 165. if you want to bash expenses then be fair and have other institutes bring their prices DOWN to where almaghrib is first.
also regarding the sufi/ashari stuff then people need to step back and look at the big picture. alhamdulillah i was fortunate to take yasir qadhi’s light upon light class, and he emphasized over and over that despite the differences we have, and his academic refutation of their ideology, he taught us that they are the CLOSEST to ahlus-sunnah and we share many common goals and must work together – especially in this country. so the unity thing is not a guise, nor is it necessary to grill someone on specific aqeedah issues before you can learn any subject from them (that sounds kind of hyper-salafi to me, not sufi!!)
anyway i have a lot more to say but mashallah br. siraaj has made a lot of those points already so i will leave it at that.
And any converts who want to go to AlMaghrib can contact info at muslimmatters dot org for scholarships run by Houston Dawah…
In their private meetings? lol u have access to their private meetins? im sure they dont invite u so stop SLANDERING THEM!
Yeah brother get it right…. it\’s not in private meetings….
their opinions on Ashari and Maturidi scholars are clear and open for all to see…
i.e. the majority of scholars past and present and the majority of \”muslims\” past and present were mushriks and not AhlusSunnah.
See Yasir Qadhi defiling another \”muslim\”:
“While it is the general policy of Al Maghrib not to quote individuals, I make exceptions in certain cases – this being one of them. Alawi al-Maliki is one of the most revered of modern Sufi personas – to speak evil of him is tantamount to apostasy in the eyes of many of his followers. For them, he is the leader of the awliya of Allah.
Yet, it is no exaggeration to state that he was one of the most active proponents in our times of blatant acts of shirk . . . How is it possible that he be of the awliya of Allah when he spent most of his energies directing mankind to worship the \’awliya\’ instead of Allah?”
-Yasir Qadhi
this is very interesting I don’t know what to make of it yet.
I stay stick with sunnipath and zaytuna.
Asharis and Maturidis are Ahl ul-Bidah. Muwwafaq ud-Din Ibn Qudamah (rahimahullah) went so far as to call them “heretics” (well, Asharis at least, he never wrote about Maturidis).
I’m not a salafi, and I’m not a sufi. So don’t jump on me. But I’ve got three comments to make:
a) Are sufi turooq a divinely protected institutions, that the crticism of them becomes an eternal sin?
b) Why is anyone who criticizes Ash’ari aqeedah, suddenly becomes the nemesis? If Ash’ari aqeedah is closest to truth, then why such Intellectual fascism?
c) I respect the fact that Sidi Ibn Ajibah is a thousand times more knowledgable than I am, however, it is important for us to read other people’s comments in the context of what their possible mental states may be. For someone who considers many of Hanabilah (including Ibn Qudamah) ‘anthropomorphists’ (and this can be seen on Sunniforums). Hence, effectively making them guilty of Kufr, it is not a surprise that Akhi Ibn Ajibah regurgitated similar insidious rhetoric in his first comments.
And do forgive me if I sound rude. These are just my observations.
Barak Allahu feekum.
Stupid comments, by people who just want to cause division.
Stick with the majority!
Nuqtah, you mentioned in the MM thread (which I made myself stop posting in), a few issues. The first one really I don’t care to even mention because my issues are beyond that. However, your second comment… no hanbali accused the asha’ris of kufr? Are you really sure about that? Because I’ve heard otherwise?
abul-karim al-hanbali,
WHO CARES WHAT IBN QUDAMAH SAID…
LOOK WHAT THE PROPHET (PBUH) SAID ABOUT ASHARI\’S:
THE PROPHETIC NARRATIONS IN PRAISE OF THE ASH`ARIS
The Prophet praised the Ash`aris in numerous narrations concerning which al-Qushayri said that they bore not only the external meaning of the tribe of the Companion Abu Musa al-Ash`ari, but also the additional meaning of the followers of his descendent Abu al-Hasan al-Ash`ari, meaning the Ash`ari school. Among these narrations:
\”O you who believe! Whoever among you turns back from his Religion, know that in his stead Allah will bring a people whom He loves and who love Him, humble toward believers, stern toward disbelievers, striving in the way of Allah, and fearing not the blame of any blamer. Such is the grace of Allah which He gives to whom He will. Allah is All-Embracing, All-Knowing.\” (5:54) When Allah revealed this verse, the Prophet pointed to Abu Musa al-Ash`ari and said: \”They are that man\’s People.\”[39]
Imam Abu al-Qasim al-Qushayri said: \”Therefore, the followers of Abu al-Hasan al-Ash`ari are also among his [Abu Musa\'s] People. For in every place that a people are affiliated to a Prophet, what is meant is the followers of that Prophet.\”[40]
This is also the position of Ibn `Asakir, al-Bayhaqi, al-Subki, and others of the Ash`ari school.[41]
\”\’Tomorrow shall come to you a people more sensitive in their hearts towards Islam than you.\’ Then the Ash`aris came, among them Abu Musa al-Ash`ari. As they approached Madina they sang poetry, saying: \’Tomorrow we meet our beloved ones, Muhammad and his group!\’ When they arrived they began to shake hands with the people, and they were the first to innovate hand-shaking.\”[42]
\”The people of Yemen have come to you, most sensitive in their souls, softest of hearts! Belief is from Yemen, wisdom is from Yemen! Pride and arrogance are found among the camel-owners; tranquility and dignity among the sheep-owners.\”[43]
\”I went in to see the Prophet after tying my camel at the gate. People from the Banu Tamim came in to see him. He said: \’Accept the glad tidings, O Banu Tamim!\’ They said: \’You gave us glad tidings; now give us something tangible.\’ This exchange took place twice. Then some from the people of Yemen came in to see him. He said: \’Accept the glad tidings, O people of Yemen! for the Banu Tamim did not accept them.\’ They said: \’We accept, O Messenger of Allah!\’ Then they said: \’We came to ask you of this Great Matter.\’ He said: \’Allah was when nothing was other than Him. His Throne stood over the water. He wrote all things in the Remembrance. He created the heavens and the earth.\’ Then someone called out: \’Your camel has fled, O Ibn al-Husayn!\’ I darted out and between me and my camel I could see a mirage. By Allah! How I wish that I had left it alone.\”[44]
Al-Subki said: \”Our scholars have said that the Prophet did not speak to anyone of the foundations of the Religion (usul al-dEEn) in such a way as he has spoken to the Ash`aris in this hadith.\”[45]
\”They [the Ash`aris] are part of me and I am part of them.\”[46]
\”The Ash`aris among people are like a precious parcel containing musk.\”[47]
NOTES
[39] Narrated from `Iyad by Ibn Abi Shayba and al-Hakim who said it is sahEEh by Muslim\’s criterion, and by al-Tabarani with a sound chain as stated by al-Haythami.
[40] As quoted in al-Qurtubi\’s Tafsir (verse 5:54).
[41] As cited in Tabyin Kadhib al-Muftari and Tabaqat al-Shafi`iyya al-Kubra (3:362-363).
[42] Hadith of the Prophet narrated from Anas ibn Malik with a sound (sahih) chain by Ahmad in his Musnad.
[43] Hadith of the Prophet narrated from Abu Hurayra by Bukhari and Muslim in their Sahihs.
[44] Hadith of the Prophet narrated from `Imran ibn Husayn by Bukhari in his Sahih.
[45] Al-Subki, Tabaqat al-Shafi`iyya al-Kubra (3:364).
[46] Hadith of the Prophet narrated from Abu Musa al-Ash`ari by Bukhari and Muslim.
[47] Hadith of the Prophet narrated from Hasan al-Basri in the mode of mursal (missing the Companion link) by Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri in Ibn Sa`d\’s Tabaqat. Among those who explained the Ash`aris mentioned in the hadith to include reference to latter-day Ash`aris are Imam Abu al-Qasim al-Qushayri, al-Subki, and Ibn `Asakir.
And again abul karim al-hanbali, who cares what ibn Qudama said about Ashari\’s and by implication Maturidi\’s, when the hadith indicate praise:
Like the rest of Wahhabi and \”Salafi\” innovators he declares Ash`aris, Maturidis, and Sufis to be outside the fold of Ahl al-Sunna and even outside the fold of Islam, although Allah Most High and His Prophet praised them! Upon revelation of the verse { Allah shall bring a people whom He loves and who love Him } (5:54), the Prophet pointed to Abu Musa al-Ash`ari – Allah be well-pleased with him – and said: \”They are that man\’s People.\”4
Al-Qushayri, Ibn `Asakir, al-Bayhaqi, Ibn al-Subki, and others said that the followers of Abu al-Hasan al-Ash`ari – i.e. Ash`aris who were mostly Sufis – are included among Abu Musa\’s People for in every place that a people are affiliated to a Prophet, what is meant is the followers of that Prophet.
As for Maturidis, they are referred to in the narration of the Prophet from Bishr al-Khath`ami or al-Ghanawi with a sound (sahîh) chain according to al-Hakim, al-Dhahabi, al-Suyuti, and al-Haythami: \”Truly you shall conquer Constantinople and truly what a wonderful leader will her leader be [Mehmet Fatih Sultan - Allah be well-pleased with him -], and truly what a wonderful army will that army be!\” Both the leader and his army were classic Hanafi Maturidis and it is known that Mehmet Fatih loved and respected Sufis, practiced tawassul, and followed a Shaykh. Moreover, enmity against Ash`aris, Maturidis, and Sufis, is nifâq and enmity against the Umma of Islam as most of the Ulema of Islam are thus described.
The extremists on each side cannot are the ones fighting.
I suggest people study the works of Shah Waliullah if they want to see a practical and systematic reconciliation of the extremist wings that one witnesses in this sad discussion.
Jinn!! You deobandi-pushing such and such!!!
J/K.
Good comment, mashaAllah.
Hope all is well.
ma’salaama
Umm Layth: I did not rule out the possibility that there were Hanbalis who did say. I said “I” don’t know of any.
Jinnz: Which works of Shah Wali Ullah muhadith dehalwi do you reccomend?
I find it funny that one questions what happens in the ‘private meetings’ of salafi shaykhs. Sh.Hamza, may Allah reward him for his efforts, is infamous for his meetings and asking for amana not to disclose what has been said. His views on TJ’s, ikwanis, salafis were readily expressed. At least that was pre 9/11. Even the other Muhammed Shareef alluded to this in his public letter.
As well, someone mentioned Sh.Nuh’s virginia subha and how he said Ibn Taymiyyah was not a kafir. However, at the same subha he did say that Ibn Taymiyyah considered asharis non-muslims. I have asked many mureeds of his to find me IT’s quote. If someone here could bring it that would be interesting.
“whodat”
The reference Sheikh Nuh gave is in ibn Taymiyyah’s (rA) Minhaj al-Sunnah, which by my lights has not been translated to English.
It might be helpful to note that there are translated statements of IT’s that directly equate the aqidah of Ash’aris to that of the pre-Islamic Arab’s, such as:
The specific line:
So does the group that is from the belief of the early generations (al-Taa’ifatu min al-salaf) say to them (the Ash`aris): Who has created the heavens and the earth? And they reply: Allah. And yet together with this they worship other than him (wa hum ma`a dhaalika ya`budoona ghayrah).
Humm, Alex I don’t think this bias is one sided. I don’t know how different are Ibn tayimiah’s words from those who accuse him coming up with three tawhids and then go on to compare it with the concept of trinity…
http://www.suhaibwebb.com/blog/2007/08/22/saying-so-long-to-a-dear-friend-traditional-islam-ust-suhaib-webb/
The latest info on all this.
Siraaj
Asalamualikum,
Abu Umaamah reports that the Prophet “My Ummah will split up into seventy-three sects, seventy-two in the Fire and one in Paradise” We said. Describe them to us. He said: “As-Suwaad al-A’dham (the Great Majority)” Reported by al-Laalikaa’ee in [Sharh Usool il-I’tiqaad] and Ibn Abee Aasim in [as-Sunnah]. The Great Majority here does not refer to the great majority of people in every age and era. Rather this is specific for the era of the Companions and the Taabi’een. Abdullaah Ibn Mas’ood said: “The Jamaa’ah is whatever (agrees) with the Truth. Even if it is only one person” .
Ishaaq ibn Raahawaayah (d.238) said: “If you were to ask the ignorant people about the Great Majority they would say: The majority of people. They do not know that al-Jamaa’ah is the Scholar who clings to the narrations from the Prophet and his way. So whoever is with him (the scholar) and follows him, then he is al-Jamaa’ah” Reported by Abu Nu’aym in [Hilyat ul-Awliyaah]. In the era of the Companions and their Followers the Taabi’een the Great Majority in that time were upon the Truth. This was due to the fact that people were in nearness to the time of the Messenger and the Messenger attested to the credibility of the best of generations. As for those who came after them then the fact that they are many is not to be considered due to the generality of the texts which give evidence that evil will increase and spread amongst the people, the Ummah will split into seventy-three sects and that Islaam will return as something strange.
Abu Shaamah (d.665H) said,”The order to stick to the Jamaa’ah means sticking to the truth and its followers; even if those who stick to the truth are few and those who oppose it are many; since the truth is that which the first Jamaa’ah from the time of the Prophet and his Companions, radiallaahu ‘anhum, were upon. No attention is given to the great number of the people of futility coming after them.” (Al-Baa’ith ‘alal-Bida’h wal-Huwaadith, p.l9).
Brother Yusuf and others,
Please read the hadith and comments below and make your own judgement as to what is meant by the Great Majority.
10) Mu\’adh ibn Jabal (Allah be pleased with him) reported that Allah\’s Messenger (Peace be upon him) said, \”The Devil is like a wolf among humans as a wolf is among sheep; it snatches the stray sheep. So beware of the paths which branch off and adhere to the Jama\’ah, the masses and the masjid.\” (Collected by Imam Ahmad; NB- The version given in Mishkat, 1/184, also on the authority of Imam Ahmad does not have the addition \’the masses and the masjid.\’)
(11) And Abu Dharr (Allah be pleased with him) reported from the Prophet (Peace be upon him) that, \”Two are better than one, and three better than two; so stick to the Jama\’ah for verily Allah, Most Great and Glorious, will only unite my nation on guidance.\” (Collected by Ahmad)
(12) Al-Harith al-Ashari (Allah be pleased with him) reported that the Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him) said:
\”I bid you to do five things: to remain attached to the main body (Jama\’ah of Muslims), listen to your ruler (the Khalif of the Islamic state) and obey him, and migrate, and fight in the way of Allah. And he who detaches himself from the main body of the Muslims (Jama\’ah) to the extent of one span of hand, he in fact, throws off the yoke of Islam from his neck, and he who calls with the call of ignorance, he is one from the denizens of Hell beyond doubt, even if he observes fast and says prayers and considers himself as a Muslim.\” (Musnad Ahmad, vide: Selection from Hadith, no. 288; by A.H. Siddique)
(13) Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah\’s Messenger (Peace be upon him) as saying:
\”Follow the great mass (as-Sawad al-Azam) for he who kept himself away from it, in fact would be thrown in Hell Fire.\” (Ibn Majah; vide: Mishkat, 1/174, by A.H. Siddiqui).
The translator of Mishkat-ul-Masabih (A.H. Siddiqui, pg. 113) said in the footnote to the last Hadith:
\”There is a good deal of difference of opinion as to what the term Sawad al-Azam implies. The overwhelming majority of the scholars are of the view that As-Sawad al-Azam means the largest group of the learned scholars and pious persons whose opinions are held in high esteem in Islam.\”
(14) Imam al-Shafi\’i (Rahimahullah) said in his Risala (pg. 252-3):
\”Sufyan (ibn Uyayna) told us from Abd al-Malik ibn Umayr from Abd al-Rahman ibn Abd Allah ibn Masood from his father, that the Prophet (Peace be upon him) said, `God will grant prosperity to His servant who hears my words, remembers them, guards them, and hands them on. Many a transmitter of law is no lawyer (faqih) himself, and many may transmit law to others who are more versed in the law than they. The heart of a Muslim shall never harbour vindictive feelings against three: sincerity in working for God; faithfulness to Muslims; and conformity to the community of believers (Jama\’ah) – their call shall protect (the believers) and guard them from (the Devil\’s) delusion.\’\” (vide: Sunan al-Darimi, vol. 1, pp. 74-6; Ibn Hanbal, vol. 6, pg. 96; Musnad al-Shafi\’i, vol. 1, pg. 16; Mishkat-ul-Masabih, 1/228; and al-Bayhaqi in his al-Madkhal). Imam al-Shafi\’i said (pg. 253): \”The Apostle\’s (Peace be upon him) order that men should follow the Muslim community is a proof that the ijma (consensus) of the Muslims is binding.\”
(15) Imam al-Shafi\’i (Rahimahullah) stated in al-Risala (pg. 286-7):
\”And Sufyan (also) told us from `Abd Allah ibn Abi Labid from `Abd Allah ibn Sulayman ibn Yasar from his father, who said: `Umar ibn al-Khattab (Allah be pleased with him) made a speech at al-Jabiya in which he said: The Apostle of God (Peace be upon him) stood among us by an order from God, as I am now standing among you, and said: Believe my Companions, then those who succeed them (the Successors), and after that those who succeed the Successors; but after them untruthfulness will prevail when people will swear (in support of their saying) without having been asked to swear, and will testify without having been asked to testify. Only those who seek the pleasure of Paradise will follow the community, for the devil can pursue one person, but stands far away from two. Let no man be alone with a woman, for the devil will be third among them. He who is happy with his right (behaviour), or unhappy with his wrong behaviour, is a (true) believer.\’\” (see also Musnad al-Shafi\’i, vol. 2, pg. 187; and Ibn Hanbal, vol. 1, pg. 112-13, 176-81).
Imam al-Shafi\’i said in conclusion to this Hadith:
\”He who holds what the Muslim community (Jama\’ah) holds shall be regarded as following the community, and he who holds differently shall be regarded as opposing the community he was ordered to follow. So the error comes from separation; but in the community as a whole there is no error concerning the meaning of the Qur\’an, the Sunnah, and analogy (qiyas).\”
(16) Imam Hakim (1/116) has related a Sahih Hadith from the Prophet (Peace be upon him) in the following words: \”My Ummah shall not agree upon error.\”
(17) Imam al-Tirmidhi (4/2167) reported on the authority of Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), who said: \”Verily my Ummah would not agree (or he said the Ummah of Muhammad) would not agree upon error and Allah\’s hand is over the group and whoever dissents from them departs to Hell.\” (see also Mishkat, 1/173)
Imam al-Azizi (d. 1070/1660; Rahimahullah) quoted Imam al-Munawi\’s (d. 1031/1622; Rahimahullah) commentary to the last Hadith in his al-Siraj al-munir sharh al-Jami al-saghir (3.449), as follows:- Allah\’s hand is over the group
(al-Azizi): Munawi says, \”Meaning his protection and preservation of them, signifying that the collectivity of the people of Islam are in Allah\’s fold, so be also in Allah\’s shelter, in the midst of them, and do not separate yourselves from them.\” The rest of the Hadith, according to the one who first recorded it (Tirmidhi), is:-
and whoever descents from them departs to hell.
Meaning that whoever diverges from the overwhelming majority concerning what is lawful or unlawful and on which the Community does not differ has slipped off the path of guidance and this will lead him to hell.\”
Here are some more relevant hadith,
(7) \’Umar (Allah be pleased with him) reported that on one occasion Allah\’s Messenger (Peace and blessings be upon him) stood up among them and said, \”Whoever among you desires the centre of paradise should keep close to the Jama\’ah for the Devil closely accompanies the solitary individual and is more distant from two.\” (Collected by Imam Tirmidhi)
(8) And \’Arfajah (Allah be pleased with him) reported (Allah\’s Messenger, peace be upon him, as saying): \”that Allah\’s hand is over the Jama\’ah and the Devil is with whoever deviates from the Jama\’ah.\” (Collected by Imam al-Tabarani)
(9) \’Abdullah ibn Masood (Allah be pleased with him) reported that once Allah\’s Messenger (Peace be upon him) drew a line in the dust with his hand and said, \”This is the straight path of Allah.\” Then he drew a series of lines to the right of it and to the left and said, \”Each of these paths has a devil at its head inviting people to it.\” He then recited (Qur\’an 6:153), \”Verily this is my straight path so follow it and do not follow the (twisted) paths.\” (Collected by Ahmad, Nisai and Darimi; see Mishkat ul-Masabih, 1/166)
(10) Mu\’adh ibn Jabal (Allah be pleased with him) reported that Allah\’s Messenger (Peace be upon him) said, \”The Devil is like a wolf among humans as a wolf is among sheep; it snatches the stray sheep. So beware of the paths which branch off and adhere to the Jama\’ah, the masses and the masjid.\” (Collected by Imam Ahmad; NB- The version given in Mishkat, 1/184, also on the authority of Imam Ahmad does not have the addition \’the masses and the masjid.\’)
siddiqui4ever, those ahadith about Asharis ONLY refer to the tribe, not the aqidah. If you believe otherwise, bring your proof if you are truthful.
And how dare you disrespect the Imam Muwaffaq ud-Din Ibn Qudama (rahimahullah)?! You’re not worth one of his fingernails!
abdul-karim al-hanbali…
The Prophet praised the Ash`aris in numerous narrations concerning which al-Qushayri said that they bore not only the external meaning of the tribe of the Companion Abu Musa al-Ash`ari, but also the additional meaning of the followers of his descendent Abu al-Hasan al-Ash`ari, meaning the Ash`ari school.
And Ibn Qudama’s opinion regarding Ashari’s holds no weight in front of the Prophets (pbuh)
“The Prophet praised the Ash`aris in numerous narrations concerning which al-Qushayri said that they bore not only the external meaning of the tribe of the Companion Abu Musa al-Ash`ari, but also the additional meaning of the followers of his descendent Abu al-Hasan al-Ash`ari, meaning the Ash`ari school.”
You already said that. I asked you to bring your proof if you are truthful. Saying “al-Qushayri said it” is not proof.
Upon revelation of the verse { Allah shall bring a people whom He loves and who love Him } (5:54), the Prophet pointed to Abu Musa al-Ash`ari – Allah be well-pleased with him – and said: ”They are that man’s People.”
-This is enough of a proof.
-The Quran applies to all times and places…….
You don’t seem to understand what proof means.
Actually, you seem to deny proof when it\’s right in front of you.
This proof was good enough for the people like al-Qushayri, Ibn `Asakir, al-Bayhaqi, al-Subki.
I had enough debate. The hadith are there as an indication to those who seek the truth. Where are your hadith hanbali?
Take it or leave it.
I end with…
”The Ash`aris among people are like a precious parcel containing musk.”
- Hadith of the Prophet narrated from Hasan al-Basri in the mode of mursal (missing the Companion link) by Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri in Ibn Sa`d\\’s Tabaqat. Among those who explained the Ash`aris mentioned in the hadith to include reference to latter-day Ash`aris are Imam Abu al-Qasim al-Qushayri, al-Subki, and Ibn `Asakir.
Of course Asharis would say it means the Ashari sect! My hadith are all the hadith that contradict the Ashari aqeedah you stupid mubtadi heretic!
Al-Qushayri is not worth the dust off of Ibn Qudamah’s shoes, nor are any of the other Ashari zanadaqah who pretend that the hadith refers to their putrid sect.
Where did Rasulullah (salallahu alayhi wa salaam) say that he was referring to the Ashari sect? How do your zindiq ulema derive a hidden meaning from the words of the Prophet?
May Allah (subhanu wa ta’ala) raise up the Hanabilah and wipe the zindiq Asharis from the face of the earth. Ameen ya Rabb.
SubhanAllah guys. It’s Ramadan. I’m closing off the comments.
Chill out. Have a date [for iftar]!
hahaha
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