Is there a place for “Gay Muslims”? – Dr. Sherman Abdal Hakim Jackson

Good answer. He’s right.
EDIT: So my commentary was harsh. My bad ya’ll. May Allah guide the misguided.

39 Replies to “Is there a place for “Gay Muslims”? – Dr. Sherman Abdal Hakim Jackson”

  1. Salam,

    “Evil Muslims” is a bold title (as well as an oxymoron). I believe scholars use the term “weak Muslim, or a Muslim with weak faith.” But that’s semantics.

    If someone is addicted to alcohol, but he doesn’t commit the act of drinking & struggles with it everyday- he has commited no wrong. The same applies here.

    Now if someone does commit the act, that’s another story. It’s important to distinguish between the two.


  2. Uhhhh…..MR, I always like your insights bro but the choice of words here is terrible.

    Drinking, not praying, commit homosexual. acts, etc, do NOT make a person evil. Nor do they make you an EVIL MUSLIM. That is a very very unIslamic way to characterize it.

    Also, I don’t think gay Muslims are committing acts anywhere NEAR to murder or rape. These are CAPITAL crimes that rob other human beings of their most fundamental rights! Being gay and happy with it is not being a murderer or rapist – it is can be combination in different weights of various issues:

    1. A psychological pathology as a result of abuse or other forms of victimization.
    2. A physical problem as a result of hormonal problems, genetic mutations, and other sicknesses.
    3. A lack of understanding of the Quran and Sunnah.
    4. A psychological pathology/deviancy as a result of hyper-sexualized experiences (this is entirely the fault of the person of course) over a period of time.

    Just because a gay Muslim might live his/her lifestyle which is prohibited by the Quran and Sunnah, doesn’t make the person evil.

    The fact that your sins, my sins, etc are private, does not make them less harmful or evil than those people who’s sins are public.

    They aren’t evil akhi. There are many different reasons why people have these problems. Our community needs to be able to draw the firm line and say that accepting this behavior is wrong and unIslamic, while at the same time NOT REJECTING THE PERSON themselves and letting them know that testifying to this Deen means that they are part of our brotherhood and sisterhood of Muslims. I doubt we have the right to ascribe evil to a person, only to an action.

    This label doesn’t help us solve the problem. We need to recognize it as a sin that comes as a result of a weakness/problem like any other, and let our community develop the resolve and ability to address it and help our brothers and sisters who are struggling.

    And Allah knows best.

  3. I think your epilogue or commentary on DSJ’s thoughtful and reasoned response is flippant at best. You have a huge forum with your blog and this is just careless – especially considering that you’re promoting it on Twitter and elsewhere.

    Also, I take serious issue with you throwing prostitutes and thieves in the same line with murderers and rapists. There is actually such thing as victims of circumstance and you should meet a prostitute before you place her as a line item in a sentence with murder and evil.

    I’m pretty sure no functionally homosexual Muslim is going to respond to your entreaty on their behalf for guidance and forgiveness when you label them with such a charged term.

    May Allah forgive us all, for only He knows our individual circumstances and has designed the weight of our trials accordingly.

  4. Abdul sattar i agree to some extent of what you say but i feel majority of your statement is not looking at from islamic perspective rather western one. Your stance on homosexuality seems relaxed almost like you accept the person who does it Undoubtedly the sin of homosexuality is one of the worst sins; indeed, it is one of the major sins (kabaa’ir) that Allaah has forbidden. Allaah destroyed the people of Loot (peace be upon him) with the most terrifying kinds of punishment because they persisted in their sin and made this evil action commonplace and acceptable among themselves. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “So when Our Commandment came, We turned (the towns of Sodom in Palestine) upside down, and rained on them stones of baked clay, in a well-arranged manner one after another; Marked from your Lord” [Hood 11:82-83].

    But reading above you suggested that the person who is a homosexual is not an evil person ? but then why would Allah send an Angel down to destroy a whole nation if they are not Evil people as you say? And then you went on to provide reasons why they are homosexuals

    >>1. A psychological pathology as a result of abuse or other forms of victimization.
    2. A physical problem as a result of hormonal problems, genetic mutations, and other sicknesses.
    3. A lack of understanding of the Quran and Sunnah.
    4. A psychological pathology/deviancy as a result of hyper-sexualized experiences (this is entirely the fault of the person of course) over a period of time.<<<

    Ask your self Why has Allah not looked into these conditions before he send down an Angel to completely wipe out these people ?

    Then Allaah says, warning those who come after them of the nations who do the same deed as they did (interpretation of the meaning):

    “and they are not ever far from the Zaalimoon (polytheists, evildoers)” [Hood 11:83]

    And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “And they indeed sought to shame his guest (by asking to commit sodomy with them). So We blinded their eyes (saying), ‘Then taste you My Torment and My Warnings.’” [al-Qamar 54:37]

    And what was the prophets (saw) stance on homosexuality ?

    The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, kill them, the one who does it and the one two whom it is done.” (Narrated by Ahmad, 2727; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’ al-Sagheer wa Ziyaadatihi, no. 6589).

    Imaam Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

    It was reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Kill the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.” (Reported by the four authors of Sunan. Its isnaad is saheeh. At-Tirmidhi said it is a hasan hadeeth).

    Why has the prophet (saw) not looked into the conditions you set out ? It is well known that homosexual acts where dealt with swiftly without no trials as the action of it speaks for it self ” GUILTY”
    So making homosexuality seem less of a sin than Murder is a dangerous thing to say as you have not studied islamic shariah and basing your opinions on westernised reasoning.

  5. Sherman Jackson says it well. Your commentary does injustice to it. Please delete it.

  6. Fouad, I appreciate your comments. Just a few points:

    1. We should not presume to know from one comment who has and who has not studied Shari’ah. Because something is not in line with YOUR understanding, does not mean it is not compliant with the Shari’ah of “Westernized’. You, nor I, do not represent by ourselves the orthodox views of Ahl-As-Sunnah, nor the interpretation of the Usul nor the Maqaasid of Islamic Law – we should not speak as if we do.

    2. Much of your comment comes from a misunderstanding of my post. Homosexuality is a sin, and is something hated by Allah (swt). But it is not comparable to murder in legal terms, it is comparable to zina.

    There is no qisas for zina or homosexuality – as there is for murder. They are classified different with different punishments. Both are sins, but we should be careful we do not classify them incorrectly in Islamic Law.

    3. You’ve quoted some verses which tell us what we already know – homosexuality is a sin and has brought the wrath of Allah upon previous nations. There is nothing new here that you have offered. We all understand Allah hates this and it is a sin.

    4. Listing possible reasons for homosexuality does not mean we are marginalizing the fact that it is unIslamic. ALL sins have causes that caused a person to fall into them, and whenever the ‘ulama or the masters of tazkiyyah-ut-nafs help to address that issue they address not only the sin but the causes that are making that person stay in that sin. When dealing with this issue, this must also be taken into account.

    4. Our issue is not that it is a sin – our issue is – will we deal with people who are afflicted with this in our community by

    a. Gently teaching them, reminding them, calling them, doing da’wah to them, teaching the gravity and disgusting nature of this lifestyle to the community, and calling to good, making it easy for people to marry, etc.


    b. Persist in self-righteous khutbahs, speeches, and attitudes – because it is so easy to identify people who sin openly, so we can feel good and holy about ourselves. Continue to marginalize our brothers and sisters who are suffering with this problem, fail to try to educate them, fail to try to reach out to them to give them da’wah on this issue, and stay persisnt in labelling them as evil.

    These are the choices before us.


  7. As salaamu alakyum,
    Fouad and Abdul both make good points, I think. Living in the city I do (San Francisco) I have seen the ultimate of the extreme. We have both gay pride parades and the “folsom street fair” devoted to promoting a lifestyle of sademasichism (sp?) where one can see naked (or nearly naked) people whipping each other in the streets. These parades and events are promoted to the point where there are uniformed police (paid for by my tax dollars as a citizen) guarding the events.

    I simply choose not to attend. However, as a new revert, I have happily embraced Hijaab as part of my lifestyle. I threw out all of my haraam clothes, and am slowly building a halal and “safe and sane” wardrobe that is neat and tidy. Why do I bring this up? Because in my personal experience, one time when I went out in Hijaab, a man spit in my face ( a complete stranger!). He yelled, “I hate you people!” and started chasing me. Luckily, it was the middle of the business day, I ran into a nearby bank and called the police. But all around me were people, none of whom stopped him.

    It was only an older man, a janitor of the Bank who came to my assistance. He gave me paper towels to clean my face and jilbab. He said that he understood persecution because he was an African -American and to try not to take it personally. I was badly shaken and he was very kind to me. Later, a Sister who is now a dear friend, and who grew up in Gaza, told me that I should NEVER assume that I am being attacked because I am Muslim, merely take it as a trial from Allah and that it is because the person has something mentally wrong with them.

    So I have rambled on here. What is my point? It is that when the police arrived, they took my report seriously, looked for the man (but could not find him); they said they were going to consider it as a ‘hate crime’ and file a report. I don’t know if, in any other city of the U.S., a Muslimah’s word would be taken so seriously by the police.

    But because of the agitation and activism of the gay community here, police are very sensitive to ‘hate crimes’ and take them seriously. I’m in no way condoning homosexual acts. These are well considered and beautifully articulated by Dr. Sherman Abdal Hakim Jackson in the video above to be sinful. We all have temptations and inclinations.

    I am a sadly bad-tempered individual, and have had to learn to bite my tongue rather than hurt someone with it! But backbiting is un-Islamic, and part of my trial given by Allah NOT to involve myself with it. Since reverting in March, I have found that many “friends” now treat me coldly–small potatoes next to being part of the ummah and having found the straight way. My daily prayers are the high point of my existence right now! 🙂

    But I think that Dr. Jackson is wise when he essentially says to condemn the sin and not the sinner. For only Allah can judge what is in someone’s heart. And I was grateful to be taken seriously by the police officers who came to my assistance. I know that they have to take sensitivity training, due to the homosexual community in San Francisco. Perhaps in another city I would be laughed at or even they would side with my attacker.

    Just my two cents,

    Wa Salaam

  8. This is a common debate among more than one religious group. If gay people still claim to be Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc., they can certainly be labeled as not being perfect ones for knowingly sinning. We all knowingly sin to some extent because we’re not perfect. People make small lies, steal and cheat chronically without hurting anyone much, abuse or instigate trouble, etc., and many of these sins may seem petty and less taboo than sins such as homosexuality and rape, but they are sins as well and we are not perfect.

  9. I think the distinction between homosexuality as a tendency and committing homosexual act needs to be understood .

    He cites hadith but he forgets that there has to be a due process for any alleged accusations. Ulama do not take one hadith and build a whole system of law but rather that hadith is subsumed into the greater understanding derived from knowing many hadith and Quranic ayas. One of such understanding is that there is great societal benefit in having procedural system of justice instead of random person committing vigilante acts and calling them following the shariah. Tomorrow I may find a person named Fouad (not you) along with his brother killing some people off claiming they are homosexuals without providing any proofs other than saying he and his bros saw them. But how do we really know they are speaking the truth? When the accused has no chance to defend him/her-self Clearly , one should not have any trouble seeing the problem with this sort of approach. By God’s Mercy , our traditional ulama did not take this approach.

    Secondly there is not any consensus among the ulama regarding the type of punishments (flogging vs stoning) that should be meted out a person(s) caught committing homosexual act provided that it has been proven that he did commit that act. Accusers have to satisfy level of proof. Its a generally known maxim that spying is prohibited in Islam so if the accusers came unto this knowledge via unlawful spying the evidence would be considered inadmissible.

  10. Following on from Sister Alki’s comment:

    I think it’s an interesting point you have brought up that given the large gay community in San Francisco, it has lead to the police force being more tolerant towards minorities. It reminded me of the verse of the Qur’an about how if something bad happens there may be good in it for you. Perhaps living in a society where that is an abundance of immoral acts has lead to this small positive thing for other minority communities in SF.

    Just an observation.

  11. To- tr

    in my post i was highlighting the severity of homosexuality and clearly i have provided a quran ayah its really up to you how you want to interpret it the words of Allah swt are clear , im not here to talk about death and punishment for homosexuality its open to the ulema to discuss that not me , but reading your post it truly indicates how soft approach you have towards homosexuality and why are you getting so defensive and quick to shield homosexuals ? do you have gay friends? or are you coming out of the closet lol ? And why with the two letter name ? what have you got to hide?

    The sahabas differed on punishments so will Ulema’s today

    It was reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Kill the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.” (Reported by the four authors of Sunan. Its isnaad is saheeh. At-Tirmidhi said it is a hasan hadeeth).

    Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq judged in accordance with this, and he wrote instructions to this effect to Khaalid, after consulting with the Sahaabah. ‘Ali was the strictest of them with regard to that. Ibn al-Qasaar and our shaykh said: the Sahaabah agreed that [the person who does homosexual acts] should be killed, but they differed as to how he should be killed. Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq said that he should be thrown down from a cliff. ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) said that a wall should be made to collapse on him. Ibn ‘Abbaas said, they should be killed by stoning. This shows that there was consensus among them that [the person who does homosexual acts] should be killed, but they differed as to how he should be executed.

    The death sentence was not just limited to homosexuals but to those who had sex with family members male or female or with animals

    This is similar to the ruling of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) concerning the person who has intercourse with a woman who is his mahram [incest], because in both cases intercourse is not permitted under any circumstances. Hence the connection was made in the hadeeth of Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) who reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Whoever you find doing the deed of the people of Loot, kill them.” And it was also reported that he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever has intercourse with a woman who is his mahram, kill him.” And according to another hadeeth with the same isnaad, “Whoever has intercourse with an animal, kill him and kill the animal with him.” (Narrated by Ahmad, 2420; Abu Dawood, 4464; al-Tirmidhi, 1454; al-Haakim, 4/355).

  12. Abdul Satar i completely i understand your approach but if you truely think homosexuality is the same as Zina then may Allah help you because you will not succeed helping homosexual muslims if you punch this into their heads they will feel their sin is equal to a man and woman having an intercourse outside marriage. Why dont you study with learned scholars and look into their insight to this rather than what you have learned in University. And also not praying is ok lool? Ok are you serious ? where did you pick up your islam from?

    the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Between a man and shirk [associating others with Allaah] and kufr there stands his giving up prayer.” Narrated by Imam Muslim in his Saheeh, 82.

    And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The covenant that stands between us and them is prayer; whoever gives up prayer is a kaafir [disbeliever].” Narrated by Imam Ahmad and the four authors of al-Sunan with a saheeh isnaad [sound chain of narrators]. And there is other evidence to support this.

    so tell me its still ok to not pray.

  13. Subxanallah. what is the world coming to? There’s no such thing as a “Gay Muslim”. Either you’re Muslim or Gay. Don’t try to get the hopes of the Homosexuals up.

  14. Salaam,

    I don’t have time to have a tit-for-tat discussion here so this will be my last post, inshAllah.

    1. Evil = Disobedience to Allah.

    2. Homosexuality – the concept, the act – IS evil.

    3. But – You and I do not have the right to declare another PERSON who believes in ISLAM as being an EVIL person by singling a person out. That’s all. Hate the act, but try to call the person towards good.

    4. I did not say homosexuality is equal to zina. I said it is comparable to zina, as opposed to Murder, in the categories of Islamic crime and punishment.

    Unfortunately, the way you brothers speak tries to assume that those who disagree with you have not studied or learned anything from scholars. You need to read more carefully and be more careful with the assumptions you make. For whatever knowledge you have obtained, you have yet to study to the adab of disagreement.

    wa alaikum assalam

  15. For those who would cite hadd punishments and historical destruction of disobedient peoples (as was done earlier in this thread), it is critical to understand the context of such consequences.

    No people was destroyed except that they received clear signs and much preaching and da’wa. Similarly, hadd punishments are carried out in the presence of legitimate Islamic legal authorities in circumstances that are holistically implemented and interpreted.

    There are historical instances, for example, where the hadd for thievery (severing the hand) was suspended due to famine: a circumstance in which the normal balance of inclination towards thievery in the population was critically altered in the eyes of legitimate Muslim authorities who holistically implemented and ruled according to the Shari’a.

    Our current age is one where, yes, Islam is ‘complete’ and no further prophets will come, but it is ludicrous to assume that a homosexual Muslim might not arise due to incomplete and irregular access to Islamic context. Most immigrant parents, for example, hardly are able to convey a proper understanding of Islam to their children to be able to navigate tremendous variance in social circumstances. If you’re not willing to admit that, then it’s time to examine what you view as the reality of living and breathing surrounded in a completely non-Islamic context.

    It’s simply not as easy as saying, people were destroyed for this and the rasul presided over hadd because people did that. People were not destroyed until massive and continuous da’wa was rejected and similarly not punished except by legitimate authorities in a society where Islamic options were widely available.

    Socioeconomic roadblocks to simple marriage for Muslim youth are, in and of themselves, a huge source of sexual deviance. While much of that deviance may be heterosexual, it is simply presumptuous to think that some of that might not end up becoming homosexual in nature, provided the right social circumstances or encouraging factors. Molestation is a perfect example.

    There are those on this thread who would view this as making excuses for sayyi`at, but that is far from the point. The point is create inviting circumstances for all types of people to come to the deen.

    Again, I renew my original call that this post is MR’s bad: it was poorly commented upon and hastily posted without regard for the ramifications of short-sighted comments on serious issues.

  16. Oh MR – props for the video akhi.
    One of the things I love about your blog is that you always put up something interesting that is always of benefit to people.

    I haven’t seen you in a whiiiiile man. I hope all is well. Hope to see you soon inshAllah!


  17. What’s even more interesting is the Fiqh rules that will develop when Muslims’ start saying, “It’s okay to have homosexual urges, just don’t act upon them”. For example;

    1) Should homosexual men be allowed to pray with other men?

    2) Should homosexual men even be allowed to be in a room alone with other men?

    3) Can homosexual men shake another man’s hand?

    4) How will the interaction between homosexual men and women change?

  18. @Alki Kalotis

    Being spit on is a SERIOUS crime, in tennessee its actually considered assualt, and if they catch you depending on what kind of diseases you might have they can charge you with more. I commend you for being so brave. A man yelled go back to Iraq at me while i was driving down the road!! I am ashamed to say I did the first thing that came to my mind, I got mad and flipped him off. i immediately started sobbing uncontrolably, not because of what he said, sure it made me angry, but i cried b/c of my reaction, how could i let myself do that?! I wasn’t thinking straight it happened so fast, i was absolutely full of shame of my actions! I called my husband and i couldn’t stop crying, he was like ignore that guy, you should have flipped him off, and i said i’m not mad at him, he doesn’t know any better, i mad at myself, i do know better, and no i shouldn’t of done that, b/c people have enough ideas of muslims doing bad, and i just handed them more ammo.

    I think i rambled to, i guess my point is, you will never regret not reacting directly to him, i am still upset at myself for reacting the way i did, i asked for forgiveness but i can’t help but think, what if i would just have ignored it. but i think maybe its a good thing it happened b/c now if someone does something to me standing in front of my face instead of getting mad or reacting i’ll think first and respond with love. its true that you can’t fight fire with fire, and even if they don’t seemed moved by your calm and loving disposition while they yell i hate you and get out of my country, maybe not right away, and maybe not ever but one day when they are thinking to themselves, or the people around that saw will say, “i want peace like that” and whether they like it or not you’ve planted to seed of islam in their hearts, they may never let it grow but that’s God’s decision to water it, He calls who He wills, we just are here to plant the seeds of love and pray they find the truth.

    I hope the man who spit on you finds islam, i hope the man who yelled at me finds it to. I was a Christian all my life and was told bad things about islam and said some bad things to my husband out of ignorance and he would look at me and say “i really wish you wouldn’t say that, its not true” but he never once said anything bad about christianity and he never even got angry and yelled at me for it, and that made me want to know why. If the man who wronged you does find islam, he’ll have a very hard time to forgive himself for what he did to you, i have a hard time forgiving myself, but Allah forgave me, and i’d rather live with guilt than without the truth. ***Most Merciful, Most Forgiving, I’m so thankful ALLAH is this!****

    I say yes make a place in your hearts for all sinners b/c we all have stumbled. Allah knows best!

  19. This was done on MM a while ago.

    in short

    a gay muslim who tries to say that homosexuality (as in the act) in not a sin, has just left the fold. (also see Sh Hamza’s “who are the disbelievers”)

    a gay muslim who sins and then repents to his lord, is just that,a sinner who perhaps needs some help.

  20. May Allah guide you MR.

    It’s a shame with all the knowledge you seek, that you still puke out such a hateful commentary.

    Sherman Jackson speaks for himself, God bless him.

  21. @hater – Ameen. Thank you. I hate what Allah hates and so does Dr. Jackson (may Allah preserve him).

  22. i am engaged to a saudi i feel that he might have done stuff with men.. i always had this feeling but i dont know can someone help me please!!!!!

  23. It is a wise – or perhaps pragmatic – answer given that we do not nowadays implement the prescribed punishments for certain sinful behaviour, which is of course in itself arguably sinful.

    Islam has a place for punishing certain sinful behaviour that is openly done and publicly advocated, because, in part, it becomes a threat to public morals, undermines the norms of the religion, and because of its potential influence on and co-option of others into the sinful acts.

    In this sense, homosexuality and adultery are viewed more like pedophilia than alcohol in this country – that is, as something that is morally abhorent, criminal, and punishable in the court of law.

    Absent from his comments is any reference to the fact that, although we do not excommunicate them per se, these acts themselves – and potentially even acts of condoning/inciting these acts – are criminal and the doers are liable for legal punishment.

    Part of the range of options available is collective censure until the sinful individual comes back to the fold. The hadith which states effeminate men should be expelled from the home suggests strong sanction for individuals who merely exhibit these tendancies; being witnessed in specific acts is not necessary for censure.

  24. I find it amazing how for all the debate that you have considered, not one has even mentioned or even remotely thought that being gay is not a bad thing.

    If say there are two men, or two women, that love each other, and wish to be with one another, then why shouldn’t they? They have not hurt anyone, or infringed on anyone’s rights? Why should they be made to feel guilt and shame for the love they feel for one another? I find it repugnant that anyone be treated in this manner especially over something that is good: namely love.

    Some have written that homosexuality is the most disgusting thing in the world. What an absurdity! I think it far more disgusting that in the name of Islam, a “devout Sunni” will go and blow up a Shia mosque, after which a “devout Shia” will go and blow up a Sunni mosque. To let religion make you so full of hatred and intolerance is the most disgusting thing. Homosexuality is not even close to the kind of disgusting evil malice that people carry inspired by their righteousness.

    It is shameful that none of you have asked: but why is it wrong? Why is it a sin? Homosexuality exists in all cultures and civilizations, and even across animal species. Then why is it so taboo in almost all religions? I would say that this homophobia is nothing more than a social construct to enforce a particular mode of sexuality. To repress anything that is seen as a “threat”. And it is shameful that no one has the courage to challenge Dr. Jackson and those like him on these issues.

    Many have contrasted homosexuality with zina. Poor analogy. I contrast homosexual acts with the wearing of the veil. If they desire to do so, then they should have the right, and society should not mistreat them for it. We treat them like humans, regardless of the kind of love they prefer or the kind of clothing they prefer.

  25. Allah created Adam and Eve – not “Adam and Steve” – Anyone who claims that homosexuality is permissible is a blasphemer even if he/she thinks they are a muslim.

  26. @Asmarani Is that your argument?

    Well, yes Allah created Adam and Eve. And they had three sons. The first they named Ian McKellan. The second they named Freddie Mercury. And the third they named Elton John.

    And the three sons were gay. And Allah saw, and found them talented and good. And blessed them with success.

    And the three went into the land and brought peace, music and joy to the hurting world. And Allah saw, and was pleased with them.

    And those who hated them for being gay, Allah cursed them for they were ignorant of His message of love and peace.

  27. @Ali,

    I ask Allah to guide you to Islam, enable you to embrace it and adhere to its rules and enable you to die as a muslim.

  28. Ali, what seems to be at issue is whether or not you consider that God has the right to legislate complete/holistic codes of conduct for His creation.

    The existence of a phenomenon in multiple cultures or, if we want to anthropomorphize, to multiple species, isn’t necessarily relevant. What is relevant is whether we acknowledge that what God has prescribed for conscious, sentient life to adhere to and live by has authority or not.

  29. @Asmarani

    Thank you for your sincerest wishes. But I am quite content without Islam and Allah. And I in turn hope that you too find contentment and peace in your life.


    Even if we posit that argument, should we ignore the prior causation: that God has created His creatures with a percentage of them as homosexuals (across species). And then he demands of the third most intelligent (dolphins and mice are smarter than humans) of them that they reject that which He made them to be in the first place. Even if we accept that God has the legislative authority, does it not seem incredibly contrived that He should create homosexuals and then order then to not be what He has made them to be. Does anyone else see the fallacy in that?

  30. Ali,

    Your failing to understand something:

    You have a Creator. Your Creator owns you. You are His property. He does with you whatever He wills. Whatever goodness God grants (such as, a breath of air or a morsel of food–or guidance to Islam) is out of His Generosity. Allah does not owe you (or me) anything. That’s the reality of human existence.

  31. @Swarth

    Assuming that I accept your premise. The Creator owns me and does with me as He wills. Now he decides to make me gay. And then He commands me to not be gay or burn in Hell for eternity. And all the goodness that I have is because he granted it to be out of his mercy, except for making me heterosexual.

    Say again? That does not sound like generosity. Instead it makes God sound like a bored deity creating randomly and then creating random rules just so he see us wriggle and torment ourselves trying to figure out how to appease him despite the flaws he has made us with.

    Is that the reality of human existence? That we depend on a deity who owes us nothing, owns us, treats us like slaves, has no compassion or mercy, cruelly torments us with arbitrary rules that contradict his own creative intent and then intends to cast us into eternal fire.


  32. “Assuming that I accept your premise. The Creator owns me and does with me as He wills.”

    Fo shizzle.

    “Now he decides to make me gay. And then He commands me to not be gay or burn in Hell for eternity.”

    Nope. You can be as flamboyant as you want but don’t follow through with the act. The act will get you fired up.

    “And all the goodness that I have is because he granted it to be out of his mercy, except for making me heterosexual.”

    Everyone gets tested. I have retinitis pigmentosa. Look it up.

    “Instead it makes God sound like a bored deity creating randomly and then creating random rules just so he see us wriggle and torment ourselves trying to figure out how to appease him despite the flaws he has made us with.”

    Nope. Every one of his rules is wise, since they are from the most wise. He has extended his mercy out for the sinners. Repentence, my dear watson. We are going to sin, that’s a given. What you do after is what counts.

    “Is that the reality of human existence?”

    “That we depend on a deity who owes us nothing”
    Preach on.

    “owns us”
    What an owner.

    “treats us like slaves”
    Damn. Never heard of a slave talk like that to a Master.

    “has no compassion or mercy”
    Ar-Rahman ar-raheem, foo.

    “cruelly torments us with arbitrary rules that contradict his own creative intent.”
    Ummm….don’t know if not raping somebody is arbitrary…..ah well.

    “and then intends to cast us into eternal fire.”
    Yo homey…he wants to stay out of the fire. You’re the one trying to jump in.

  33. @Ali

    I should say, at the outset, I am not certain if the issue you have is primarily with homosexuality and Islam as much as it is with Islam, or even further, with religion and God, in general. Perhaps it would help in framing the discussion for you to better characterize how you’re approaching this.

    Secondly, I can recognize your passion in approaching these questions but I would appreciate toning down the adversarial tint your words are taking.

    As for me, my goal is to ascertain with accuracy what God wants from me and then follow it. If that is your goal also, then there is something to be discussed here. If not, then we should do our own things, respectively, and there is no need to argue.

    A few things to consider, but not necessary to answer:

    1) Do you believe in an omnipotent, singular God who is infinite in every capacity and lacking in none, eternal and without a beginning or an end?

    2) If you do, do you believe that His knowledge/reasoning is completely comprehensible to beings He created?

    3) If not, do you believe it should be?

    4) Do you believe He is just; do you believe He is merciful?

    5) Do you believe that His creations owe Him their allegiance through obedience, though they retain the ability not to?

    6) Do you believe that tribulation in life is Divine comedy or that it is rewarded through spiritual ascendance?

    7) Do you believe that contravention with God’s law is necessarily a ‘bad’ course of action?

    I’m not asking these questions for answers, but because they are sort of the underlying fundamentals behind what I feel you’ve been getting at, to some degree. At least how I see it.

    With the specific case of homosexuality, you are particularly concerned that its intrinsic nature is incongruous with God’s rules and regulations, despite the “fact” that God made a person that way.

    Now, there is neither a predominance of scientific evidence for or against genetic homosexuality (for Muslims who follow the Qur’an as truth, we know that before the people of Lut, upon whom be peace, none had practiced homosexuality in all of pre-existing humanity; but you may not believe or buy this, so let’s say there is, for the sake of argument, validity to what you’re saying.

    Why does God making someone’s inclination for item X illegal have to be a reason for God’s handiwork to be somehow flawed? Is our obedience or living according to God’s laws supposed to be free of any difficulty whatsoever?

    Analogically, there are a number of intrinsic characteristics that each of us have which make it a trial to adhere to God’s rules. There was a man at the time of the prophet, upon whom be peace and blessings of God, who insisted that he enjoyed and couldn’t stay away from Islamically illegal non-marital sex. This person was encouraged, still, not to engage in the activity by the rasul on account of it’s intrinsic vileness. Was it not a cruel, Divine joke that this person was made to fornicate but was told he could not? Only if you believe that this life is intended to be lived with no difficulty in choosing between God’s preference and everything else.

    In point of fact, difficulty in following the laws of God despite being called to account for it is the entire modus operandi of our human, spiritual predicament, as is noted in the 18th chapter of The Cave:

    “Indeed, We’ve made everything that is upon the Earth [a form of attractive] ornamentation for it in order that We [may] test them [as to] which of them are best in [terms of their] deeds.” And He goes on to say that after that, the Earth will be laid to waste – because it’s just a proving grounds for moral mettle.

    That’s how I understand it, at least.

    I disagree that we owe our allegiance to a deity who owes us nothing, owns us, treats us like slaves, has no compassion or mercy, cruelly torments us with arbitrary rules that contradict His own creative intent and then intends to cast us into eternal fire.

    We owe our allegiance to God, the most Just and Merciful; a God whose intrinsic reasoning and intent we cannot grasp of our time/space limited, mortally bound minds, but who has not asked of us anything beyond what we have the God-given ability to commit to and accomplish.

    If the main crux of your argument is that homosexuality isn’t wrong or destructive and that God cannot ask people to do what he’s “made” them hard-wired to do, however, your argument will only go in further circles here.

    Homosexuality is wrong because God has defined it as such; if, in fact, God has created people to desire homosexuality, then it is in His judgment that He’s done so and it doesn’t make those individuals free to live other than His revealed law. Now, it’s not our job to hate on and make living difficult for people who claim to be homosexual, but it’s certainly not our job to say that we should change the Divinely constructed paradigm of permissible sexual relations just because of it.

    Stealing is also haram, by the way; shall we abolish thievery from having legal premise due to compulsive or genetically intrinsic thieves? I’m sure psychologists can make the case that there are many inclined to steal to the point that it’s difficult not to; same for lying, pedophilia, beastiality, and countless other things.

  34. If you ask me what you just said was actually really wrong. Allah (peace be upon him) said that if a homosexual lusts for the same sex or sexually assults them is wrong not that homosexual love is wrong. Also it is people like you who always use religion to cover up your own ignorance gives Islam a bad name.


    I am not Muslim nor homosexual.

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