Saudi Arabia builds first University for men and women, Scholar doesn’t like it and loses his position

King Abdullah builds a university for men and women and allows women to drive within the university as well as not wear the niqab. A scholar from the Saudi leading ulema council, Shaykh Saad al-Shethry, complains and King Abdullah removes him from his position. I guess we can no longer say women can’t drive in Saudi Arabia.

King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia has sacked a senior cleric who criticised a new science and technology university which opened in September.

The cleric, Sheikh Saad al-Shethry, said the mixing of sexes in any university was evil and a great sin.

He demanded the curriculum should be vetted by Islamic scholars to prevent teaching of “alien ideologies”.

The $7bn university near Jeddah, named after King Abdullah, is a key project of the reform-minded Saudi monarch.

In what is being seen as a rare intervention, a royal decree removed Sheikh Saad from Saudi Arabia’s most senior council of religious scholars, or ulema.

No reason was given publicly for the removal.

The timing follows the sheikh’s stringent criticism of the King Abdullah University of Science and Technology (KAUST), whose administration lies outside the control of the cleric-dominated ministry of education.

“The recommendation is to set up Sharia (Islamic law) committees at this university to oversee these studies and look into what violates the Sharia,” Sheikh Saad was quoted saying last week in the Saudi press.

The government hopes the technologically advanced centre with its relaxed social constraints will help modernise the kingdom’s deeply conservative society.

In contrast to the strict rules outside the sprawling campus, women are allowed to drive and are not required to wear veils in classes.


64 Replies to “Saudi Arabia builds first University for men and women, Scholar doesn’t like it and loses his position”

  1. This was surprising, even despite recent liberal advances in the KSA.

    To lose your job because you criticized the king, wow that’s pretty harsh. And it puts a heavy chill on how citizens of that country publicly critique the leadership.

  2. If the King established this institution for the benefit of Islam and his people, then Inshallah, it will be successful.

    But if he did it to appease and please the West and non-Muslim nations, then it will result in failure.

    Allah knows what his true intention was.

    People lose their jobs all the time for saying the wrong thing. It happens in America also. Maybe not as blatantly as in this case in SA, but it’s not uncommon.

  3. Only in these days is being conservative and traditional seen as backward and in opposition to modernity and “liberty”. Ridiculous. I hate it when people treat it as a jaahil society, always pushing for more “progression”. Sure it has serious problems – as all countries do – but the over zealous, above the top exaggeration of its “medieval times era” is really getting annoying. Progression is good – but it depends what your idea of progression is. This is progress – but I don’t agree with “whose administration lies outside the control of the cleric-dominated ministry of education.” HELLO! Cleric-dominated = Shar’iah imposed. Muslim country = follows shari’ah. Honestly now.

  4. Egypt cleric ‘to ban full veils’
    Egyptian women in full veil, or niqab
    The niqab has become increasingly popular among Egypt’s Muslim radicals

    Egypt’s highest Muslim authority has said he will issue a religious edict against the growing trend for full women’s veils, known as the niqab.

    Sheikh Mohamed Tantawi, dean of al-Azhar university, called full-face veiling a custom that has nothing to do with the Islamic faith.

    Although most Muslim women in Egypt wear the Islamic headscarf, increasing numbers are adopting the niqab as well.

    The practice is widely associated with more radical trends of Islam.

    The niqab question reportedly arose when Sheikh Tantawi was visiting a girls’ school in Cairo at the weekend and asked one of the students to remove her niqab.

    The Egyptian newspaper al-Masri al-Yom quoted him expressing surprise at the girl’s attire and telling her it was merely a tradition, with no connection to religion or the Koran.

    I Wonder what the majority of muslims feel on this issue i mean the niqab not the individual story above. Each to their own is my opinion although i dont think it’s necassary if you wanna wear it i suppose y not it should be upto the individual right ?

  5. Saudi’s tyrants are in a sad position. They want Saudi to forget about Islam, yet they need to please a great number of Muslim tribes to stay in rule.

    But as this shows, they have put their confidence in the West and care less about the tribes.

  6. MR: Are there separate classes for women and men, just all in one school, or are the classes themselves mixed?

    If the classes are mixed then, this is a serious tragedy – and I know that all of the liberal “open-minded” muslims see this as not a problem, but the segregation between non-related members of the opposite of sex is a really important part of the deen that prevents mass amounts of fitnah.

  7. “The niqab question reportedly arose when Sheikh Tantawi was visiting a girls’ school in Cairo at the weekend and asked one of the students to remove her niqab.”

    Subhanullah!!! What age we are in when the scholar asks a young sister to remove her niqab.

    May allah protect us from these fitnahs.

  8. I love it how people jump to such extreme conclusions without trying to dig deeper into the all the nuanced dynamics of an event.

    calm the hell down.

  9. @usman As-salamu alaykum wa rahmatUllah wa barakatuh, I hesitate to ask, but what proof (that is authentic proof from Qur’an and sunnah) do you have for the statement “the segregation between non-related members of the opposite of sex is a really important part of the deen that prevents mass amounts of fitnah”?

  10. Just about the Egypt story, I’ve heard that some scholars say niqaab is cultural and therefore not necessarily Islamic (but they do say that hijaab is fard.)

  11. Well, first of all for women to drive i do not c any problem wit that because men are driving too that is a law established by man. Whereas the niqab, the question that we sud be asking ourselves is that If our Beloved Prophet (Pbuh) was here would he approved the niqab or not? i guess we all know the answer to the question.

    We sud not follow the unbelievers we sud always be opposite to them. If women prefer to wear the niqab why sudn’t we let them and i cannot believe the egyptian scholar asked our innocent sister to remove the niqab. Why would he say that, that is what i do not understand?

    No matter what the king of SA reasons might be he hasnt got any rights to sacked the Ulema who is just trying to establish and maintain the true teaching of Islam.

    What is the difference between our sisters and Christian nuns in terms of dress code but u ll never hear in the news that their pope or pastor asked them to remove their niqab or woteva u might call it.


  12. the univ. has only 15% of saudi population. its mostly for foreign students and staff so i guess that explains the *liberal* laws. women in saudi are still not allowed to drive.
    i wonder why the king didnt remove the judge from his position when he ordered a 8 year old bride to return her 70 year old husband? (i think he was 80!) and the case was a clear violation of Islam. the little girl was forced into marriage..she tried to run away but her dad threatened her…
    i guess it’s another sign of the end of times..ignorant rulers..wAllahu’alam

  13. I don’t agree with the firing of the scholar, if he was simply expressing his legal opinion. However, is there a direct link between his criticism and being sacked? If there is, again, I disagree… but perhaps there is more to it?

    Anyhoo. I also respectfully disagree on some of what the scholar said. I don’t think there should be a Shariah board, dictating what is permissible or impermissible in what is taught, because that is excessive, and will cause unnecessary debate and delay. Science and technology are inherently ‘Islamic’ as they are the study of Allah’s creation. I.e., in all matters outside of worship, everything is permissible until proven otherwise.

    There should definitely be a consultation group wrt medical ethics, and animal experimentation. Department heads should be versed in basic Islamic ethics, and should consult scholars when new issues arise. Even Western universities have to pass certain research through ethical review, before being granted permission to start their projects.

    But there should be general intellectual freedom, because most subjects are not impermissible. That’s a fact, not even my opinion. And if you disagree, the burden of proof is on you! 🙂

  14. Sallam brothers and sisters…..may the peace and blessings of Allah Almighty be upon ALL of you Ameen.

    first of all i would like to say that the time we are living in is called ‘Doms days’……which means that what ever Allah and his blessed prophet Muhammed (SAW) has told us will take place. For example – Muslims will be large in number yet so weak since they will move away from the Qur’an and Sunnah(teaching of prophet pbuh) – killing will increase, the weather will get extream, earthqwakes will increase, the number of women will increase until there are 50 women to 1 man – the leaders of men will be bad and one of the worsed people of the people……..etc.
    and there are many more things which i can talk and talk about which will take place in dooms days but time does not permit

    the last thing i stated that the leaders will be the worsed of people and that muslims will move away from the wonderful teachings of the Qur’an is apprant today and cause of wrong doings.

    Allowing women to drive has nothing to do with Islam and its law made by man hence it can be right or wrong….BUT the law from GOD (ALLAH) that men and women must Not FREE MIX and that both men an women must preserve hijab………….one might think HIJAB FOR MEN??? WHAT IS THIS BROTHER TALKING ABOUT…….well in the Qur’an Allah first talks about the hijab for the man (“and tell the believing men to lower thier gaze when they see a women and a evil thought comes in their minds and to dress up modestly…….and then Allah talks about the women to cover their bodys and cover their head (the dress code for Muslims women is no diffrent from Christian nuns…but the only differance is that they don’t get marryed But Islam allows muslims women to get marriyed and practice Islam also….it is not one or the other, which is opprestion to womens rights to get marriyed) which leaves them looking at other men since their sexual needs are not fufilled. ( this is a danger point)

    now why does Islam not allow free mixing of men and women??
    well any person with a slight level of Intelligence will say that it will lead to evil and a life of sadness and Grief. why because free mixing leads to boy freind girl freind Business which leads to the next level (kissing) then one step up…..then finally oh my god she is Pregnant ……what shall we do now….problems problems and yes more problems. The child that will be born will be in risk of having a very hard and horrible life maybe without knowing his father (that is very sad and destrying the Society. (this is also why Islam does not allow women to have more that 1 husband – the child has a right to know its father).

    Remember Islam is a Religion of prevention and does not allow you to even walk on the path of the devil so he cannot tempt you to evil acts which will only cause sadness and sorrow.

    Islam is not the religion of paper but a total way an guide to life, which ensures a healthy and happy successful life and hereafter.
    Just ask yourself one question…….why is it the fastest growing religion in the world??????
    If you want the truth you will find it just like the one who is thirty finds water!
    I would have loved to carry on and explain more but time does not permit
    May Allah almighty guide the Muslims and guide the non-Muslims to Islam. We as Muslims don’t pray that they are destroyed but pray they are guided and protected from the hell fire……peace to all humankind…Islam has made us ALL brothers and sister (Muslims and non-Muslims alike).
    May Allah bring back the Muslims to the Qur’an and Sunnah AMEEN
    Allah-Hafiz (wasslam)

    Abdul-Hasib (HND, BEng Hon’s)

  15. @ Musa Jobarteh:

    Sorry dude, you were being really confusing. If you were referring to the traditional dress of a nun, then you should have said “habit” as that’s what its called. Don’t call it something else and then expect people to understand you when they act all confused. Otherwise I might as well as say HEY 2+2=9! OR WHATEVER. right?

    @ Abdul-Hasib:

    Hey bro, sorry man but you’ll have to put something together that’s more coherent and compelling than that. There have been plenty of cases where men and women have “mixed” including in the markets, in battle, in healthcare, in Hajj, and so on and so forth. If you think about it, society would really cease to function if you said men and women absolutely cannot interact with each other at all.

    Islam laid down the rules, regulations, guidelines and recommendations for gender interaction [and many other issues]. Everyone knows what the limits are on such types of interactions. Humans are given free will and everyone will be judged according to their intentions and actions at the end of the day. You can’t go out there and enforce proper behavio on everyone – what’s the use of free will then?

  16. @Abdul-Hasib, Wa alaykum as-salam wa rahmatUllah wa barakatuh, first off you cannot say for sure that this is the end of days, as who knows if it were to be so much worse, say 10-100 times as many muslims, but 1/100th as many as today that worship? Clearly we haven’t reached the stage of 50 women to 1 man, or when the Muslims will say “la illaha il Allah” and not know why, only that their fathers and grandfathers did.

    As for your other point regarding hijab and the free-mixing of men and women, this story has nothing to do with either. From the above it isn’t even clear that men and women would attend the same class, and as we know in the time of our Prophet, sallallahu alaiyhi wasalam, women were a very strong presence and frequently would attend rallies and gatherings where men and women “mix”, even today in Mecca this is the case. “Freely mixing” is a whole other thing, and I don’t think the in this new University there will be mixed gender social gatherings or anything of the sort.

    As for niqab, in all of my reading I have never found any condoning of the wearing of niqab except that of the wives of the Prophet, sallallahu alaiyhi wasalam, and even for them it was not required.

    And a subpoint you made that Islam is “fastest growing religion in the world” is pointless. I expect then if tomorrow 1/2 the world became Buddhist that you’d abandon Islam and become Buddhist? I don’t follow Islam because it’s popular, I follow it because I’ve determined it is the truth…

  17. I love this new idea of having cutting edge educational facilties established in Saudi Arabia… and I see no problem with the driving either…

    But I wonder how they’re going to manage the mixed environment… They really have no idea what happens in University campuses here in NA… do they? I just hope the dormitories are rigorously inaccessible to each other.

    I got scared when I first read the article because I thought it was a hijab-free environment instead of a niqab-free environment but alhamdulillah it doesnt seem to be the case.

  18. hey everybody, assalaamu ‘alaykum.

    is it me or does the brother not respond to messages sent from the Contact MR section? i was just curious as to how you guys get in touch with him in private.


  19. “i wonder why the king didnt remove the judge from his position when he ordered a 8 year old bride to return her 70 year old husband? (i think he was 80!) and the case was a clear violation of Islam. the little girl was forced into marriage..she tried to run away but her dad threatened her…
    i guess it’s another sign of the end of times..ignorant rulers..wAllahu’alam”

    How is that a violation of Islam? Didn’t the prophet of Islam, take a very young bride in a similar manner?

    BTW: your signs of the “end of times” are about as believable as the mayan calendar the world will end 2012 tin foil hat wearers. LOL

  20. iMuslim:

    Salam Brother.

    “Anyhoo. I also respectfully disagree on some of what the scholar said. I don’t think there should be a Shariah board, dictating what is permissible or impermissible in what is taught, because that is excessive, and will cause unnecessary debate and delay. Science and technology are inherently ‘Islamic’ as they are the study of Allah’s creation. I.e., in all matters outside of worship, everything is permissible until proven otherwise.”

    There are things that are taught in Science, that clash with Islamic teachings. Such as theory of evolution. Topics like that is what I think he demanded the curriculum should be vetted by Islamic Scholars, to prevent what’s considered “alien ideologies” from being taught.

    I want to make it clear I’m not sure at all. Allahu’Alam.

  21. @Kearns, I see that you don’t really understand how the world will come to and end….what you talk about that people will be left with just “la illaha il Allah” because they will hear their old people saying it is one of the MAJOR Signs of the Hour. BUT what your missing is that the holy prophet (pbuh) has told us many smaller signs which will be apprant before end of times. Yes no one knows about the day of judgment NOT EVEN THE PROPHET…….but prophet Muhammed(pbuh) told us what will haven’t before that…..the world will not just finish the next day you wake up without th signs th holy prophet has told us. And let me tell you that if you had so knolege you would know that ALL the minor and SOME major signs have taken place…..the time we are living in is called dooms days….that does not mean the world will end next Firday NO!………but it means that we are very close to the end of times but no one knows how close.

    and i see you haven’t really understood what Islam means by free mixing……………these are laws set by Allah………if you call yourself a Muslim then don’t challange the creator! who is all wise most powerful!

    I have been to Makka and i did not see any stranger men or women talking with each other or doing some activity with each other. Every man and women is dressed according to Islam dress code (The way that pleases Allah (swt)). they all are busy in worshiping Allah. So don’t try comparing a Uni enviroment with the muslims in Kaba worshiping Allah and lowering their gaze. by your comment and tone of comment i see you have very little knolegve of Islam and strongly suggest you learn before you come here and start spreading the wrong about Islam and by going agiest Islam…..i pritty much dout your even a muslim by your comment.

    again i see the lack of knolege you have….you say that It has no importance to you that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world today……..when this is one of the signs from Allah that Islam will sprend all over the globe and will domunate……..if you are a muslims that please take this as a message from your brother…PLEASE GO OUT AND LEARN ISLAM……..Jarzakallah May Allah guide you to the stright path and give you hedaya AMeen

    Abdul-Hasib (BEng Hon’s)

  22. @Abdul-HASIB please don’t attack a brother’s knowledge or lack thereof in a public forum, that’s seriously bad adab. On top of that, I’d advise against it online, as you don’t really know who you are talking to.

    Yes there are many signs, but by your own admission even the Prophet, sulallhu alayhi wasalam, didn’t know the actual day, just that we are in the end of times, and have been since his coming, over 1400 years ago. If 1400 years is still the end of times, why not 3000? So in reality there is no way to tell how close we are, and therefore speculation is pointless.

    As for “challenging the Creator”, I was only challenging you. If you feel that there is some sort of absolute proof, based no authentic sources, that the story above some how accounts for “free mixing”, then feel free to present your evidence, but please make it a good argument since it’s clear that much of the Islamic world doesn’t agree with you.

    As for your statement regarding Mecca, when I was there I purchased something from a woman, apparently that goes against what you think is acceptable. On top of that, when traveling to Morocco and Indonesia, and I imagine much of the rest of the Muslim majority world, there is not the separation that the Saudi’s feel is necessary. Typically I find this is due to cultural differences and not due to Islam, and I am rather sure studying the historical record will back that up.

    Your argument regarding the spread of Islam as one of the signs is an argument that you’ll hear from Christians as well, and not one that will convince me that their religion is for me.

    Perhaps, if you feel this call to dawah, you should invest some time studying useful techniques in calling people to Islam, the first of which must surely be to not insult those to whom you are calling. After all that was the way of our Prophet, sulallhu alayhi wasalam.

  23. Abdul-Hasib:

    How come Umm Amara [ra] was fighting alongside the men at the battle of Uhud? How come Aisha [ra] was in the middle of men at the battle of Jamal? How come come Khawlah bint al-Azwar was fighting alongside and against men at the battle of Yarmuk? Is that all “free-mixing” to you or what?

    There are plenty of other examples I can give but I’ll let you think upon those three since if a woman has a weapon in her hand and she’s going face to face with a man, that’s pretty direct.

  24. @Maverick

    Mate i wasnt being confusing if you do not understand that doesnt mean that i was being really confusing. I was just saying that whatever tradition the nuns might follow irrespective of their dress codes and that the pope would not say otherwise and asking them to do do something against their own will. The points that i made is absolutely evident mate and i am just against all the free mixing thingy at uni and the ulema asking the sister to remove her niqab.
    Hope this is quite satisfactory.

    May Allah forgive us. The Prophet SAW never forced Aisha RA to marry him or any sort but in fact she was offered to him. so please do not compare the Prophet of Allah to that 80 yr old man pls mate.


  25. Musa: – Yeah I understand now, but when you said niqab and nuns in the same sentence it was definitely seemed like something new, when in fact you were referring to their specific clothing attire called a “habit”.

    As for free-mixing at Universities, I’m not sure why people are so adamantly against it. Free-mixing by itself – i.e. unrelated men and women in a common area or setting – regardless of activity – isn’t haram. Freemixing happens all the time in the public spheres of life.

    If you are of the opinion that free-mixing at Muslim schools will lead to haram, then you need to state this distinction very clearly, although even then you’ll notice that haram stuff happens regardless of segregation.

    Presonally I don’t agree with segregation at school. Students need to learn to deal with different types of people from both genders so they can be better prepared when they get out into the real world, and become responsible and productive members of society. Its the parents who bear real responsibility for imparting proper manners and ethics into their kids, and not the State.

    And btw, Frank isn’t Muslim. He’s just a troll who comes here to fling some of his cranial feces here and there. Usually he slips and falls on it too.

  26. Musa Jobarteh both married girls before they were ‘adults,’ ie reached puberty. The reason the Saudis didn’t do nothing to the judge because the actions of your prophet and who they get their laws from did the same thing, ergo it is legal there.

    I really don’t care what Saudis do in Saudi Arabia though, I just wanted to point out the hypocrisy of a particular poster here.

    Maverick I find it hypocritical that you’re concerned this guy was fired for criticizing the “King” of Saudi Arabia, you were the same person who claimed certain people in the UK were “white supremacist” because they were against their governments multicultural immigration policies.

  27. I’m not concerned, I’m surprised. There is a critical difference, and if you like I can sit down and school you about it. It’ll be just like old times. Unless of course you felt hurt by my “cranial feces” comment and you felt obliged to puke up some kind of retort, in which case you failed.

    The BNP and their supporters are racist people, without a shred of a doubt. They believe in protecting and promoting the white race above others.

    On the other hand, this Saudi cleric was voicing his outrage about new and unorthodox policies being introduced by the government.

    One issue is about racial intolerance, the other is about political disagreement that has nothing whatsoever to do with race or ethnicity.

    If that major difference doesn’t jump out at you like your Jack-in-the-box toy, then let me know. Maybe I’ll use bright crayons and make very pretty pictures so you can understand better.

  28. @ Frank
    You really need to look at marriages early in History. It was common for young “women” (who are considered girls today) to get married. In England, kids under the age of 12 were tried like adults (you must be “mukallaf” – the age of responsibility – to be tried like an adult in Islam). One of the former rabbis of Israel said that women use to get married as young as 9 years old. This was the “Urf” (practice at that time) in many cultures. If you look at pictures of kids generations ago, you would notice the look of responsibility and maturity, not the dumbed down kids of today. If the Prophet married a younger woman, and she had nothing but praise for him, a lot of what we know about Islam is from her, her father was the best friend of the Prophet, who are you to judge on their relationship? It does not mean that he was setting a “rule” that generations later an older man “must” marry a younger woman, that was just the practice of marriage at that time. In the Oxford dictionary of the Bible, it says that Mary was 12 years old when she had Jesus, therefore, was God wrong in making her pregnant at such a young age?
    I hope you read all of this, and can move on to more useful discussions.

  29. @Concerned your argument is pointless. I know people married young in the past. My own mother was married at 15 and had 5 or 6 kids by the time she was 21. The thing is she was an adult when she married my father, ie past puberty. The situation here is different because they are marrying girls before puberty. I don’t care if they do either, they have their own customs and culture. My point was the 80 year old did what was acceptable in Saudi, because the prophet of Islam did the same thing. Concerned we really don’t have any idea how kids acted in a time we didn’t live in. There wasn’t some uniform way people acted in any era of time.

    @Maverick all you’ve done is proven you’re a hypocrite. You have one set of rules for one people, and another set for another set of people. If being out for your own kind is racist, then you can paint the entire of humanity as racist. You’re pointing out the BNP because they happen to be against what you believe in. You use the racist lable to discredit them. Many of their policies are very good, like being against wars in the middle east. The majority of Muslims in the UK don’t care though, they rather have a million dead Muslims in some far off place then sacrifice having the possibility of not having one of their cousins come over so he can send money back “home!” Your reasons for being against the BNP are not fooling me. The BNP is political too genius, all the Pakis didn’t drop out of the sky, they were brough there by the government policy makers, making it a government issue genius. LOL

  30. @Al Sudani – I kinda expected the theory of evolution to be brought up. 🙂 Firstly, evolution as a theory is not against Islam. Believing that humans derived from a common ape ancestor is the only point of contention – but otherwise, the Qur’an and Sunnah have nothing to say about the method of creation that Allah chose for the billions and trillions of other living beings with whom we share the planet.

    Further, Muslims who are stuying at university level should definitely be familiar with all modern scientific theories – even the ones they disagree with. How else will they argue against them? This is the time to develop the skills of critical thinking.

    I can understand if anyone should want to protect children from ay contentious theories, as they are naive and trusting, and may not question anything they are taught by their teachers.

    However, adult students must learn such theories, and further, be free to discuss, debate and criticise anything they are taught. Unfortunately, such an objective environment is missing from most universities. It would be wonderful if KAUST got this right – it would be a model for other institutions around the world, insha’Allah.

  31. Frank;

    I currently live in the UK. Strangely enough, as a Brown person, I do actually regard some of their policies as interesting, and worth discussing.

    I’m open-minded. Just because they are utterly racist, that doesn’t mean everything they say is evil and should be ignored. So I do agree with some of their views, for example that there are many Blacks and other foreigners, with large families, who are just living off benefit, and not contributing much to the Country. In fact in some cases, committing violent crimes, murder, and so on. I also agree that immigration needs to be controlled. But the problem they are extreme, and go as far as to want an ‘all White Britain’. Also they paint and label an entire group of people, by using cases to prove their points. Like one of their members said that Blacks are criminals. Yes there are blacks who commit crime, but there are also many law-abiding black citizens who contribute to society. Their problem is that they are extreme, which is why they generalize a lot. They don’t appear to be willing to have an open-minded discussion about some of their policies. I used to live in a neighbourhood where the majority supported the BNP. A lot of them resorted to insults, intimidation, and violence towards foreigners.

  32. iMuslim;

    I was using one example of a topic, where it clashes with Islamic teachings, such as theory of evolution. There can be others that clash too, and that’s why I suppose he said the curriculum should be vetted by Scholars to prevent such topics from being taught.

    I am not arguing that they should not learn topics that are at dispute with Islamic teachings. I was responding to what you said (“Science and technology are inherently ‘Islamic’”), by pointing out that there are things not so Islamic being taught in Science.

  33. iMuslim,

    Before Muslims can critique the theories of the Western materialists/secularists, they need to have a good understanding of traditional Islamic Doctrine to do so. Many of the Muslims today are so abysmally weak in the matters of Islamic theology that it can be readily expected that such people, when they come in contact with Western sciences, will either become intimdated or infatuated with those ideas. Either way, their Imaan will be weakened–that’s if they don’t just outright apostate. It’s better to be a technologically backwards Muslim than it is to be a kaafir with advanced technology. Of course, it is not an either or dilemma–and it is a communal OBLIGATION for Muslims to be on the vanguard of technology, but we can’t do that without a thorough understanding of the deeper matters of `Aqidah.

    The situation is further compounded in Saudi Arabia, because Wahhabism, and its anthropomorphic absurdities, is the state religion. The Wahhabis have no intellectual basis by which to defend their doctrine. Hence, using one’s intellect is an anathema to the Wahhabis, because their creed of believing that the Creator of space and direction exists within space and direction runs contrary to the judgment of sound reasoning. (Sound reasoning (and the Qur’an and Sunnah) tells us that since Allah is Eternal and existed before space and direction, and that after Allah created space and direction, Allah did not materialize in space or direction. Allah exists without being in a location (or in all locations), because Allah really does not resemble or need any of the creations).

    We have a long way to go, and we won’t make any progress until folks are willing to take the time out to study the matters of `Aqidah.

    With Allah is the success.

  34. Al Sudani I don’t think the BNP are going for an all white Britain, they know it not feesible. They aren’t racist, but nationalist. They see a Pole who has basically the same color skin as much a threat to their national identity and culture as much as a brown Muslim. Blacks and browns in the UK, and all of Europe are over represented when it comes to crime, so it is no surprise people are sick of them, and don’t want to live amongst them. Muslims are against the BNP and label them racist because they are anti immigration, that is the only reason. The Muslims in Europe and the US always support liberal politics because of this trojan horse. The BNP make it very clear they are against meddling in the affairs of Muslim countries and don’t want any wars. This alone should make the Muslims there want to support them, but in reality those Muslims there don’t care about other Muslims. They just want to continue to live their cushy lifestyle.

    People are entitled to their piece of land, especially one their ancestors created. I doubt people like Maverick were calling Indonesians racist when they were raping and killing ethnic Chinese in Indonesia in the late 90’s, because it was his side doing it. There is nothing worse then hypocrisy in this world.

  35. Lol Frank.

    They do want an all white Britain. Nick Griffin;

    ““Without the White race, nothing matters. [Other right-wing parties] believe that the answer to the race question is integration and a futile attempt to create “Black Britons”, while we affirm that non-Whites have no place here at all and will not rest until every last one has left our land”

    On their General Election Manifesto, under the Chapter of, Abolishing multiculturalism, preserving Britain, it states;,

    “A massively-funded and permanent programme, using and doubling Britain’s current foreign aid budget, will aim to reduce, by voluntary resettlement to their lands of ethnic origin, the proportion of ethnic minorities living in Britain…”


    “The British National Party stands for the preservation of the national and ethnic character of the British people and is wholly opposed to any form of racial integration between British and non-European peoples. It is therefore committed to stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration and to restoring, by legal changes, negotiation and consent, the overwhelmingly white make up of the British population that existed prior to 1948.”

    Source (directly from their own Website);

    Poles are European. So they are not seen as much of a threat to their national identity and culture, as you claim. This is what the BNP says;

    “The British National Party stands for the preservation of the national and ethnic character of the British people and is wholly opposed to any form of racial integration between British and NON-EUROPEAN peoples.”

    BNP are indeed racist. They class non-Europeans differently than Europeans. I lived amongst them, and I know what their attitude is like. Not only are Muslims against them, others of various Religious background are.

  36. @Swarth Moor – I agree that we should all be firmly ground in our Aqeedah, before studying anything. I only have issue with scholars of one science, controlling the teaching of another science, especially when Shariah does have limits. We’re not meant to ask too many questions (i.e., chase after fatwas) that would cause us to be burdened by them. And unfortunately, too many modern scholars forget that the answer to many questions should be “I don’t know”, and instead try to use analogy and other devices to come with some kind of answer, which again, burdens the people.

    @Al Sudani – Evolution has made everyone fearful of the natural sciences, when we all know the cure for ignorance is education.

    Educate the Muslims about the realities, flaws, and positives of the theory of evolution – or whatever theory you find problematic; do not make it a monster that scares people away from Islam. It really has no inherent power to do such a thing. Anyone who leaves Islam because of this simple biological principle had very little faith or understanding to begin with – which is sad in itself.

    Anyway, I would like to end by saying: Allah knows best, and making dua: May Allah grant us knowledge that benefits us, and keep us safe from knowledge that harms. Ameen.

  37. Al Sudani I don’t know when that quote from Griffin is from. I know his opinions have flip flopped over the years, like a typical politician. They might pander to some other European groups in the UK, because they have an assumed common enemy, but I don’t think they want the country to be flooded by non British either. This is not clear case of white against non white. The people in the UK have had their differences amongst fellow whites for as long as I can remember. There are even groups like the Scottish and Welsh who talk about independence. Wanting to live amongst your own people is not racist, but natural. That is how so many ethnicities have originated over thousands of years. I really don’t know why you have such a problem with the BNP favoring and wanting to live amongst their own kind. When people in Latin America or Asia become nationalist it is always viewed as a good thing, and their natural right. When a white country does it they call them racist. Islam doesn’t believe in equality, we are all equal stuff. They consider a Muslim superior to a non Muslim. Muslims have attacked and oppressed non Muslims since the start of Islam, so it would be hypocritical to call the British ‘racist’ for believing in self determination.

    You might see yourself as law abiding immigrant looking for a better life, but the natives might see you as an invader who is taking their jobs and trying to change their traditional way of life. Guys like Maverick want to have it both ways. They want the West to become multicultural and accept them, but at the same time they want their motherland to remain pure and safe from globalization. They are the worse people around today.

  38. # Ibn Masood October 5th, 2009 at 7:59 pm

    In Saudia, when the words niqab free environment is used it means hijab free environment. Private compounds are also niqab free environments & one can witness the fitna there.

    many in family don’t wear niqab in Saudia but no one really says anything to them as long as they are wearing abaya & cover their head (total hijab).

  39. Salaam,

    I don’t know where you got ‘niqab free’ from, if you read the articles it’s actually ‘hijab free’ meaning you don’t have to cover your hair, in reality however this means an ‘islamic free’ environment. it’s unfortunate but I’m not surprised

  40. Frank;

    He did say that.

    And it doesn’t matter if his opinions has “changed” over the years, I’ve showed you what is in their Constitution, and Manifestos.

    The reality is they don’t change their views, that remains the same as they’ve always been. However they do tone down their public messages, to gain more support, from people. They’ve re-phrased words on their policies, cut down on attacking Jews, and turned their attention to attack Muslims and Islam. They are still very much anti-Jews. They want to modernise the party, which is why they are now more careful of what they say and do. Their views are the same.

    I didn’t say there is anything wrong with wanting to live amongst yourself. I myself is not a huge fan of diversity. My own country is being flooded by refugees and immigrants, and I totally oppose that. I understand that doesn’t make me or anyone else for that matter a racist. But the BNP are racist.

    My problem with the BNP is NOT on their policies regarding multiculturism. As I said, strangely enough, as a Brown person, I do actually regard some of their policies as interesting, and worth discussing. My problem is that they are very extreme. Same problem I have with anyone who exceeds the bounds of moderation.

    Muslim isn’t a race. So your argument doesn’t fit.

    Lol @ ” the natives might see you as an invader who is taking their jobs and trying to change their traditional way of life”.

    My country only became independent from British rule a few decades ago. So I think it would be ironic for the natives to see me as that. Unlike what Britain did to us, we came here legally, not attempting to change their way of life, not governing them, not taking their jobs. There are many useless natives here, not working, or bothering to educate themselves. Simply because they don’t want to, and rather live off benefits. And they sit there blaming immigrants for their low-lives.

  41. @Al Sudani, I actually laughed to myself when you called the BNP extremist. There are no extremist parties in the UK, all most work within the draconian 1984esque system. You can be thrown in jail for words in the UK. Adults can’t own guns in the UK. The UK is chalk full of CCTV to monitor everyone. They aren’t anti Jew, because their underlining theme is anti Islam. Instead of attacking Islam (mythical social construct) they should be attacing race, an actual scientific fact. A Somali Muslim is just as violent, lazy, and a burden as a Jamican Christian. The fact that they follow some Middle Eastern gobblygook doesn’t make them a problem it is their genetics.

    Muslims might not be a race, but they act one, they call it the Ummah. They have invaded, subjugated, and practiced plenty of bigotry, for them to open their mouth about a native people on their own land not wanthing them there is pure hypocrisy….

  42. Frank,

    Long on claim, short on substance as usual. You keep raving like a lunatic about my hypocrisy but offer no proof for your words.

    I must say I’ve never seen anyone treat their own credibility with such hatred and disdain the way you do.

  43. @Frank

    And other “islam haters” u lot need to get out of ere and leave your hatred against islam and muslims at your house door. You need to know that islam is the system and is pure and a law from God SWT and muslims are the people so it is two different things.
    U just need to learn about Islam and the Universal Prophet (SAW) just his attributes will make u Muslim if you are someone who is brainy and who thinks straight.
    The things that you saying about Islam is what you see in the media not what you read. If you want to criticise Islam you can do it in your own site cus this site is for Muslims who wants to discuss their own agendas.
    Read about Islam before you criticise it ignorantly cus it making people laugh at you and it is annoying ova ppl. PLEASE STOP MAKING ANY BAD REMARKS ABOUT ISLAM.

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